Running more than 1 train

[jimmylow]

Anyone in favour of lobbying MSTS to enhance the TS in allowing us to drive 2 sets of train at the same time?? :) Tat's will be the ULTIMATE railroading experience on PC.

You know, where we can switch between cabs? .... Sounds cool!!

[flarrfan]

No...I understand some other train game allows this, though I don't know why you'd want to do this. I run this simulator to be prototypical. Generally a train crew gets one train and stays on it for their crew day. The only time I would want to be able to change engines is if a multi-unit consist needs to run back to where it came from without using a wye. In that case, a crew would move from one engine in the consist to another.

If you just want to play toy trains and jump around from one train to another rather than simulating reality, you might want to check out a toy train game.

[OTTODAD]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-02 AT 08:34AM (EDT)[p]What you mean is like having more than one train in your displayed scene. Click on the one you want to drive, the displayed scene changes accordingly and away you go ?

Preferably in the EXPLORE ROUTE Activity, which would appeal more to the average player !

It's on my list of suggestions I shall submit to the Managing Director of KUJU in good time before they get too deep into designing the next complete revamp of MSTS.

In additon, they should also allow the driver of an "Active Train" to switch Driving Position to the Cab at the other end of an ACELA forinstance, or single Loco shunting/switching, with the points/switches F8 indicator showing their settings correctly, etc..

A fair proportion of members in this Forum prefer to run their train like on real Railways, time tables, pre-defined tasks, red lights, etc., the average player hasn't got a clue about, nor likely to be aware of the existence of this and other Train-Sim Forums.

However, these "Real Time" Train Simmers do not represent the majority of users who, like me, want to do what they like and go where they want, like in FS2002.

If they had designed FS2002 in a way to make you log Flight Plans and Waystations, flying along pre-determined Routes, tuning in to VORs, etc, it would not have been as popular as it is. And this is a Real Pilot talking here. FlightSims like EUROFIGHTER which insist on lengthy "Briefings" and "Missions" go straight into the trash can as far as I am concerned !

If I pay for something, I want to do with it what I want ! It would be like buying a car, having to drive along roads the manufacturer says I can drive on, using no more than 70 mph, etc. Get the message ? :-)

The REAL MONEY comes from Train Enthusiasts who want to play MSTS the same way they would their Model Railway Lay-outs, providing they can afford one, but on a GRANDER scale with more Reality built in ! That is what those who can not afford Model Railway Layouts, filling every Exhibition I have ever visited, are looking for, kids from 10- to 100+ years of age :-)

In this and any other Industry you have to cater for the Majority of users, not a small specialist, "sideways" market ! If you want to make a fortune that is. ;-)

Keep your fingers crossed that KUJU listens :7 It would be to their benefit !

I got a feeling that some of their programmers are MSTS Simmers themselves and might read what we say in this Forum ? ;-)

[Main Lines]

Also, assuming we get a working turntable, what about a hostler in an engine terminal - he changes engines all day.

[netmasteroc3]

You know there are lagitimate uses for that in prototype opperations, as least as far as TS is concerned.

For example on the Cumbres and Toltec there is a weight restriction on the Labato tressel. As such the helper (lead) engine must decouple and procede accross while the train waits for it to cross. Persuent to most railway rule books that would constitute 2 trains, as the helper running on its own becomes its own train. In order to recreate that accurately in the sim, you would need to be able to drive the helper accross and then the train.

Of course the C&TS's helpers are point also creates an interisting prototypicl replication problem at Cumbres Pass, where they cut off the helper (lead engine) and run it into a siding and the train continues on. Requirieing you to be able to switch from one train to another, assumeing that trains are implimented as actual trains and not considered part of the same consist when uncoupeled.

[kevarc]

Ottodad, I think your assumptions about who wants what is wrong. IMHO, most want to to it right and the real time simmers are the hardcore who will spend the dollars on addons not the casual gamers.

I think jumping from train to train other than in "engine hostler" mode would be a big distraction from the program. I do not see how you can compare FS to MSTS. That they are sims is the only similarity. Planes have the capabilaty to go anywhere thay want in the sky while trains are stuck to where the rails go.

"If I pay for something, I want to do with it what I want ! It would be like buying a car, having to drive along roads the manufacturer says I can drive on, using no more than 70 mph, etc. Get the message ?"
Again you state something that makes absolutely no sense. I own guns - does this mean its ok for me to do what I want with them? After all I did pay for them.

IMHO you have tried to say what you want in the sim and made it appear that that's what the majority wants and I do not think that is the case.

Kevin Arceneaux

[OTTODAD]

I have a "Firearms" Cerificate here in the U.K., can't have rifles like my RUGER .22 Stainless without it.

The only place to use your rifles, no more handguns allowed other then Black Powder or 12" long ones, is an approved Range where you can do with them what you want, keeping in line with it's safety regulations.

A recent article in an USA Guns magazine interviewed a State Police officer on the subject of what you can and can not do with rifles:

"It can not be concealed, you got to show it", True, seen many mounted in the cabs of truck, travelling in the States.
"Can I fire it while I am driving ?", "YES, of course you can !"
"Can I fire it while I am driving, being drunk at the same time ?", "YES, but you would be prosecuted for Drunk-Driving !"

And so the interview goes on. It seems there is very little you can not do with Firearms in the States as long as you do not hit something you shouldn't have.

As far as KUJU's intention are concerned, we shall see who is going to be right ! "REAL TIME" Train Simmers are in the minority world wide.

[flarrfan]

Point well taken...I was thinking of an activity for the CTSRR involving doubleheading to Cumbres, turning the lead engine on the wye and running light back to Chama, but completely forgot about the trestle issue.

Did they have to do the same maneuver in the old days of long freight trains?

[flarrfan]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-02 AT 05:07PM (EDT)[p]Well, I guess there's room for all kinds when it comes to PC entertainment products. Actually, now that I think about it, not recognizing other people's niche interests is part of what turned me off to model RR clubs, and I see prototype fans trackside all the time who don't seem all that willing to tolerate anyone who doesn't share their particular interest, whether its contemporary train operations (mine), or obsessively noting each engine number, type, date and location in little notebooks going back decades, or noting the location of each rivet and every other distinguishing feature of every engine or car ever built. I even have a friend (a tolerant one) who's special train-watching interest is in the designs that get painted on cars (not talking taggers here but things like Herbies).

Just to clarify my initial reply in this thread---I just wanted to alert the original poster to the existence of a toy train game that would allow him to do what he wants, and certainly on a LIMITED basis, such as switching cabs in a consist for runaround moves or the Lobato trestle two-step, this would be an appropriate option to consider for MSTS 2. Well ahead of this on my list would be improving the AI dispatcher for activities by allowing priority assignments to player and AI trains, so you don't have the anomaly of a hot intermodal train having to hold for a local switcher to get into a siding. And obviously fixing the switch bug and letting us go back to realistic coupler break values to test out our train-handling skills.

[troub]

>A recent article in an USA
>Guns magazine interviewed a State
>Police officer on the subject
>of what you can and
>can not do with rifles:
>
. . . .
>
>And so the interview goes on.
>It seems there is very
>little you can not do
>with Firearms in the States
>as long as you do
>not hit something you shouldn't
>have.

Uh, what state was this trooper from? Must be somewhere with a lot of wide open nothing. Anywhere I can think of you could/would be prosecuted for a number of violations for discharging a weapon from a moving vehicle or anywhere else that is inappropriate, including but not limited to "Reckless Endangerment," "Disturbing the Peace," and in many places there are ordinances against any discharge of a firearm within a municipality.

Also, your "I paid for it so I should be able to do what I want with it" doesn't apply: you paid for it, and you can do what you want with it. However, you have to do it based on the capabilities of the product. A better analogy against your argument would be, "I bought this gun, I should be able to use it to fly around the room."

troub
[link:pages.sbcglobal.net/msts-ic|MSTS: Illinois Central]

[Hawk]

Personally, I think the idea would come in handy, upon occasion.
For instance; where you have to split a train to get over a pass, and-since Wye's and Loop's are a problem in the sim, you could hitch a helper (reversed) at the end and have the ability to go back "from whence you came"
I really don't know why I'm saying all this, I have enough trouble driving one train. :D
What I'd like to see is better Editors, but that's another story. }>
Hawk

"Traaaain-Train, Take me on out of this town."

[dyvach]

No...I understand some other train game allows this, though I don't know why you'd want to do this. I run this simulator to be prototypical.

Probably for the same reason people use those fancy 'external views' in msTS and spend their time customizing them... even though jumping out of your train to look at it while hovering in the air is at least as unprototypical as switching between trains in the middle of a ride...

Hmm; now you got me curious. When you run your prototypical simulator, do you stay all the time in the prototypical view from the cab? Never use any of those (soooo unprototypical) Driver Aids... save/load functions... pause the game... etc? :)

[NPBL2414]

I believe that if Microsoft/KUJU let some these very smart people who re-modify engines and cars to do certain things we would all be happy. As for driving more than one train, I'm against it totally. There are about a zillion other things that would make the sim more realistic, and driving more than one train at a time is not one. As for the making reverse moves, and (my favorite) running Hostlers, I think that if Microsoft/KUJU was to put a professional twist to the #5 view, that would be just great. There are a bunch of loco's in the library that are tweaked to put you into the "cab" of a trailing unit when you hit the 5 (passenger view button).

NL 2428 one lead to Portlock Ovvaaa.

[Bing]

Fella, you better not be caught by a trooper in this part of the US with a loaded rifle anywhere in your vehicle. That became a reality in Michigan long ago - probably fifty or more years - in an effort to curb or at least slow down poaching.

And if you should be caught with a loaded rifle AND a jack light (large reflector type lantern for purpose of transfixing deer at night in order that user may kill them with the least possible effort) - kiss the outside world goodbye. Probably a year in prison. Depends upon the judge. In Otsego County, if you get the Hanging Judge, you will get the max.

Texas, sure. Michigan - you better not have a loaded firearm of ANY kind in the car. Don't judge everyone by the way some crazies act.

Bing

[asmith46]

Kevarc, once again you are "right on target" so to speak :-)
When OTTODAD was flying those aircraft around in real life, did he get to go anywhere he wanted and do anything he wanted? I doubt it. Of course, he didn't pay for the airplane either. I understand what you are saying OTTODAD, and I like to do that too, but I like MSTS to be a simulator more than a game. More attention paid to prototypical operations by KUJU would be a big improvement to an already super product. That would include hostler capability when necessary, but not just jumping from the player train to some other AI train, or changing consists in the middle of an activity.

As for the post about "flying views" and Track Monitor, SOMETHING has got to replace that "seat of the pants" feeling which is naturally lacking in FS and TS. I don't need to explain why. Just my $0.02.

Al

[OTTODAD]

Yes, I am aware of States having their own Laws, like you can not chew gum in a bus in a certain town, can't remember which, or the Alcohol issue in Utah :-). Pity I did not keep this "Guns and Ammo" mag, the article was quite amusing.

I was in Draper, Utah at Christmas, visiting my Son and his Family. His house is at the foot of the then snow covered Wasatch Mountains and deer were in a farmer's field nearby, looking for food.

You should have seen the number of trucks, the type which has a cab and a flat loading area at the back. Most of them showing a rifle mounted at the back of the cab at head hight behind the seats.

My Daughter-in-Law got quite upset thinking that they were there trying to shoot them, out of season ! I even called a Draper Sheriff out, nice guy, had a half hour long chat with him about a lot of things USA and him telling me about his recent visit to Austria where I come from :7

[OTTODAD]

Not quite sure what he meant by "Changing Trains".

I interpreted it as meaning that he wants to change to another train / consist while actually running the EXPLORE ROUTE or an Acitivity. Not having to "Exit" the Activity to select another "Locomotive / Consist" or Activity ?

[Darrel]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-02 AT 10:54AM (EDT)[p]Im not sure what he ment either. It would be nice to be able to change to different engines on the same train but I find it unrealistic to be hoppin back and forth between trains. I have enough trouble running one train and keeping on "track". To have two or more would be a real nightmare. Like some others have said, there are more important things that could make the sim more realistic but least we forget, this will only be possible when processors and video cards get faster and have more memory. Hey they've already improved so much!! The original sim was designed to run on a variety of mid to faster computers. Im sure KUJU will not make things too complicated til the market is there with lots of us enthusiasts with faster machines with loads of memory. Soon all of our machines will have three or more cooling fans instead of two :).

[asmith46]

I use a WIN98 machine at work, could get by with less. My wife uses this WIN98 machine here at home (very superior to mine at work) for some overtime CAD work for her employer, and we write most of it off on taxes. It was top of the line just 1.5 years ago, 19" monitor etc. How can I justify a next generation machine just because I want to run Train Simulator at top end? All suggestions appreciated. C'mon guys, help me here!!! If there is any way to avoid M$$'s intrusive and illegitimate probing into my personal affairs (i.e. WinXP etc.) I would appreciate advice on that, too. Thanks in advance.

Al

[OTTODAD]

WIN XP ? Here in the U.K. the business uptake of XP has not exceeded 15% to date, many still implementing WIN 2000 and others not intending to go for XP for at least another year. By which time WIN XP will have been superceded by yet another version, already being worked on.

Guillemot, the Graphics Card people, tell me that they are using WIN 2000 they are happy with. That's the one I shall go for the next time I upgrade my machine. I am sure it will be obtainable with OEM machines and from Distributors for some time yet.

There is also the emergence of new 512 GPU Graphics cards which will mean new versions of Gaming Software, including MSTS.

I am happy with my MSTS and it's Add-Ons for the moment and will wait until after Christmas. Every year so far, you bought something before Christmas only to find that immediately afterwards new stuff is being released by the ton ! x( The idea behind that is to get rid of outdated stock first during the Christmas peak Home users buying season ?

[KingJPW]

I don't want to get into any argument about what is prototypical or not so I will simply answer the question. Yes! I want to be able to switch from one engine to another. In other words, I want to imagine myself 'to be' on one crew, and then switch to another crew an imagine that I am on that crew. I want to be able to build/break engine consists at an engine terminal and drive either one. This is so basic that I can't believe we can't do it. I was really disappointed when I realized MSTS couldn't do this.

KingJPW

[OTTODAD]

That is precisely what I want too !!!!

Amongst a lot of other things, like SOUND synchronised with speed, Engines rumble and motors whine, Wheels on Tracks, Switches / Points, Whistles and Horns according to type of Loco, etc, etc.

Functionality similar to FS2002. From DROPDOWN Menus, select your Route, Engines / Consists / Cars, place them on tracks of your choice, CLICK on the unit to want to make the "PLAYER" one, change to another unit to make it the "PLAYER" and SAVE it all, giving it YOUR Name and not a Default one, selecting a SAVED Activity or Default one for the next session, etc.

The PROTOTYPE Railroaders can then go a step further and add Computer controlled Traffic, Time Tables, etc, etc. and run it REAL-TIME.

I will suggest to KUJU to create three versions:

MSTS HOME an affordable version to appeal to all the average users, dads and their kids.

MSTS PRO for the Prototype / Professional users.

MSTS DELUXE with all the Bells and Whistles, Moving Maps, RADIO Communications and TTC - Train Traffic Control, adding visual Train Traffic Control Centers, etc., etc.

That should keep A L L Railway Enthusiasts busy for some considerable time and make lots of money for KUJU and MS because unless they do, there is going to be no Future for MSTS !!!

[CharlieB]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 10:44AM (EDT)[p]And how about the Doppler shift when we pass a crossing bell or are viewing a train as it passes sounding its whistle? That one shouldn't be too hard to program. Just a test on positive or negative relative velocity. If they really want to get fancy, they could have the actual tone at the instant of passage (zero relative velocity).

[OTTODAD]

I read about that one in another thread, posted by you Charlie, or was it in the Trainsim.Org Forum ?

I am sure that this is somewhere in the list of improvements KUJU are likely to work on, after having taken care of more pressing existing issues ?

[JivaGoswami]

Help in writing off and upgrading? The solution here is to lease.
jivajvia

[JivaGoswami]

Hello. :) Doppler shift is built in MSTS and very beautiful. Enjoying it, apparently (maybe) is dependent on your hardware and settings.

I'm not sure why, but the surround sound here is totally and wonderfully utilized (to the chagrin of family members trying to sleep ... THANKS Rich for the Ohio and West Virginia Railroad ... and THANKS too to the ingenious author for the new and even better I-forget-the-name ... you know ... Pelican Island? THE VAULT!!) .. :) Isn't it SEAVIEW 2?

Anyway ... with these wonderful wonderful routes stock and activities ... by around 3 AM family members are wishing yours truly had surround sound headphones ... (Big huge woofer on the floor ... get out of the way!! Get out of the way!!! :) )

jivajiva

[OTTODAD]

What you mean is like Microsoft's new Software Licensing Scheme ? A perpetual Cash Cow they can carry on milking for ever, not having to worry whether their Software is up to the job or not !

Good grief, don't give them any more ideas like that :7

[CharlieB]

First thought...Recently I was working on Lake Erie (I'm an environmental engineer and boat captain), in the Toledo, Ohio area, where there are a number of yards on the east side of the Maumee River. On several occasions, driving to the dock, I sat at crossings waiting, while yard switching was being done. (I probably could have found a way around the blocked crossing, but, hey, watching trains is fun!) Typically there was more than one yard locomotive in action and multiple activities taking place at the same time. I suspect at least one or two of the locomotives were main liners, picking up or dropping their consists at the yard. That whole scenario would be very difficult to choreograph with AI trains, I suspect, but would be a heck of a lot of fun to run as a multi-player game, say on a home network. (My 25 year-old, computer scientist son and his buddies have incredibly elaborate networking capabilities for their gaming and carry around notebook computers so they can hook-up to each other's networks.) Maybe there is a place for running more than 1 train, after all.

Second thought...Regardless of how purist the "prototypers" claim to be, they are still constrained by the fact that we are simulating the experience on a computer. As a result, there are key differences between our experience and the real thing. We do not have a sense of motion and speed; we don't even get sound changes when we change speed. We must rely on clues like "Projected Speed" on the Track Monitor to tell us if we are climbing or descending, because we have limited visual clues and no inner ear sense at all. (In this sense, MSTS is more like instrument flying...which I've done a bit of in the past...where you must train yourself to rely solely on what you see on your instruments, not on your inner ear.) Even the largest monitor is limited by the number of lines on a screen, so our ability to see signals and other on track activities is restricted. There is just one of us, when, in reality, we would be coordinating with a train crew, particularly in such activities as yard switching. A lot of what we do in learning to control our trains is really learning to interact appropriately with the software that simulates the trains. In fact, at least some of the available locomotives don't even have the correct cabs. In short, we have already made compromises in using MSTS. If we really wanted to insist on the real thing, we would be volunteering at a local museum railway, like the Old Colony-Newport Scenic Railway here in Newport, RI.

Finally, there is a very interesting TV documentary on the derailment in California that resulted in a gas pipeline explosion...I forget the exact pass. One of the elements that led to the derailment was reportedly some mis-communication between the lead engineer and the engineer in the helper engine wioth regard to braking and the use of the dynamic brakes. How do we simulate that in MSTS today?

I agree that, when we buy MSTS, we should expect to live within its limitations. It is what it is. A Honda Insight is not a Ferrari. But we can and should communicate our interests, so the next version will have more of what each of us likes. In fact, the concept of three different versions sure sounds attractive to me.

Just a few thoughts...

Charlie

[CharlieB]

Yeah...I know what you mean about the midnight runs....

Just tried the whistle test again...got very definite change in whistle volume as train approached and passed, but no change in frequency (pitch), i.e., no Doppler shift. Did same for several different engines, diesel and steam, with same results.

Find it hard to believe that would be solely due to my sound card, which does just fine with music and voice.

Maybe there's some switch I need to set in Options or elsewhere? I've got everything on the Sound tab set at 1.0 or High right now.

Charlie

[JivaGoswami]

:)

I don't know why surround sound works so well with MSTS here. Bells, on train, crossing bells, whistle ... all Doppler-matized. 'Twas one of the first things I noticed and appreciated about this product ... so this is an included feature in the software.

There are settings here for Dolby, Quad, 4x stereo ... etc. I don't even know what settings are on ... nor do I know (and this is nuts ...) the kind of sound card here.) I'll check Does CineMaster 98 (C 3.0) seem to be relative input here?

Respectfully ...

jivajiva

[OTTODAD]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-02 AT 03:08PM (EDT)[p]YOU HIT THE NAIL SMACK ON IT's HEAD, Charlie :7

I think that all this is shaping up to all of us getting what we want from the next releases of MSTS. Well, most of it anyway. :-)

[CharlieB]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread, because I just finished Reiner Run 3 on Ohio RR and it got me thinking about running more than one engine.

In Reiner Run 3, you end up with a total of six engines powering a 50-car coal train over the hills of southeastern Ohio. As I understand engine manning, I think at least four of those engines would be manned in the real world (is that right?). During the run from Reiner to Mariette, it doesn't matter, but I think it would matter in the yards at both ends.

The way the activity goes, you end up moving the extra engines around by coupling to them with the one engine under your control. In the real world, I suspect that consist would be assembled and broken down by coordinated activities from all the manned engines. For example, at the end of the activity, I suspect the trailing engines would uncouple and head for maintenance on their own, without waiting for the head engines. This is a good example of why it would be great to be able to control more than one engine.

If you could do that, then it's no big step to controling more than one train.

Thoughts?

[OTTODAD]

Right ! Here we go again ! :-)

So this prototypical ACELA driver arrives at the N.E.C. Phili Termial with his train, gets out of his Cab, locks it, goes for a wee or whatever you call it over there politely, gets a newspaper and walks back to the Cab at the other end of his ACELA to take it out of the station again, either back to Washington or into a storage siding.

That's why I want to be able to switch Driving Position from one end of a consist like the ACELA, TGV, TEE, DMU, EUROSTAR, PUSH-PULL, to the other !

Now then, in this Scenario we have 2 Trains ready for Departure, at Phili again. This ACELA, just arrived, sheds his driver to take one of the ready and waiting ones back to Baltimore this time, where he will hand over to another driver and go home to his family. Ah yes, forgot to mention that he lives in Baltimore.

I think you all got the Picture now ! We are running RAILROADS here, not just ONE TRAIN AT A TIME, IN ONE DIRECTION and on ONE TRACK ONLY :7

[dbourke]

I must agree with OTTODAD in being able to select an alternate engine to run in an activity that can have more than one engine or train. It would make TS much more interesting.
i don't care about the laws of gun handling as they apply to TS enjoyment. Similies are always dangerous when they become the subject and not merely an example.
Da..da..dats all folks!

Steamer
Calgary

[CaptFuzzy4]

>Fella, you better not be caught by a trooper in this part of
>the US with a loaded rifle anywhere in your vehicle. That
>became a reality in Michigan long ago - probably fifty or
>more years - in an effort to curb or at least slow down
>poaching.
>
>And if you should be caught with a loaded rifle AND a jack
>light (large reflector type lantern for purpose of
>transfixing deer at night in order that user may kill them
>with the least possible effort) - kiss the outside world
>goodbye. Probably a year in prison. Depends upon the judge.
>In Otsego County, if you get the Hanging Judge, you will get
>the max.
>
>Texas, sure. Michigan - you better not have a loaded firearm
>of ANY kind in the car. Don't judge everyone by the way some
>crazies act.
>
>Bing


So very true!! I grew up in Michigan, and lived there until just 5 years ago, and I know this to be true.

[tcain1]

In additon, they should also allow the driver of an "Active Train" to switch Driving Position to the Cab at the other end of an ACELA forinstance,

Actually this is possible. Change one of your side views (I used the left side) to use the same textures as your front view. Then change position to opposite end ex: if the position was ( 0.75 3.5 7.0) change it to ( -0.75 3.5 -7.0) then change the direction to be 180 degrees from where your current front position is (ex: ( 10 0 0 ) change to ( 10 180 0). You can also change either your dim or full sphere of light to direct to the rear for night operations. Of course there are drawbacks. You won't have visable guages and controls while facing the rear. Of course you lose one of your side views. (Not a big loss IMHO. If you choose to reset the sphere of the headlights you lose that sphere for the front for that headlight setting. The result though I think is worth it.

[tcain1]

You can simulate this quite well! You can just setup another activity for the return trip. You can even place the train you just brought in on the track along side you. You can think of the time to switch activities as the time the engineer goes and wees as OTTODAD put it. Before he returns to his new train for the return trip.

[blade2]

Can you send me the tweaked eng.file frome the hhp by nail, would have made me very happ. thanks in advance:-)










Thomas

[blade2]

Can you send me the tweaked eng.file frome the hhp by mail, would have made me very happy. thanks in advance:-)





E-mail is blade178@msn.com



Thomas

[CSX_Jim]

Please, please, please...do not relate anything about Utah as representative of anywhere else in the U.S. My God, there are actually people there who believe having more than one wife is acceptable, of course they would carry guns at head height in their car/truck. Makes suicide much easier. :-)

[CharlieB]

Humm...looks to me like you got the second engine in an Acela Regional...looking back at the passenger cars in the consist.

What about the Acela Express, which has the second loco at the OTHER END of the consist, looking at nothing but the world going by behind? I don't even know if that engine is manned in the real world, but it would be fun to sit there anyway.