Cab Forward progress report

[mikkox]

There has been a lot of requests on this, so here it is. The Cab Forward now has new valve gear, air pumps, some handrails and bars and a beginning of a tender.

Here are the screenshots:

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd3fa4e3e07713f.jpg
A comparison between two SP steamers. :)

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd3fb15403675cd.jpg
Side view of the Cab Forward alone. The tender is missing the rear truck because I won't copy the front truck to the rear before I've added some detail and textured it.

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd3fb91416e4092.jpg
The highly detailed air pumps and other accessories. Does anyone know what the thing below the pumps does?

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd3fc4343686297.jpg
The new valve gear, along with detailed tubes on the cylinder. The valve gear isn't animated yet, the reason for some rods being a little off.

I also ran into a problem, but luckily I managed to solve it. It seems MSTS can't handle objects that have their frame rotated on all the three axes. Strange. I got a "cannot add car to the world: uid 2000 or something" error message. Well, it was easily fixed by rotating the object inside the frame, and straightening the frame.

Oh yeah, I also have a question about the Buckeye trucks of the tender, were the couplers connected directly the trucks as I have seen in some pics, or were they connected to the tender frame?

[Adam3291]

LAST EDITED ON May-04-02 AT 11:55AM (EDT)[p]Maybe Not. Mikkox what is you E-Mail. Thanks, Adam

[cjmaclean]

*starts drooling all over his desk again* Now this is DEFINITELY going to be a great year for virtual steam engineers!!!!!! :7 :7 :7


D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[Euston]

Wow, looks - sort of odd!! - but I'm sure that is intentional :-)

Will there be a new cabview with this loco? - what kind of cab did it have?

SIMTRAIN UK
http://www.goldenwebawards.com/images/webaward2002c.gif
[b] [font color="#ff4500"] If you are releasing a payware add-on, or planning to buy one, make sure your first stop is SIMTRAIN UK, the place to go for great previews and reviews:
http://clix.to/trainsim

[mikkox]

>Will there be a new cabview
>with this loco? - what
>kind of cab did it
>have?

Yes, none of the existing cabs won't really fit, because both the engineer and the fireman sit their backs to the boiler. The controls are reversed so that the engineer sits on the right as usual, with the brake gauges on a stand to his left, and the throttle (a very similiar as in ESE) is on the right above him.

I'm not sure how I will get all the controls, especially the firemans, into the cabview, because of the way the controls are positioned. Maybe I'll make a small area separated by a red line to show some necessary fireman gauges, like on this sketch I've made:
http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd428e96b36b9fc.jpg

I was thinking about the oil burner... there are some hints that MSTS might be able to model oil burning locomotives, but no-one has managed to get them work. It is possible to change the speed how fast the coal burns. The biggest difference (in MSTS) is the fire mass... if you burn oil, you control the "mass" with the atomizer, ensuring that all the oil burns immeditealy.

So, it should be possible to make a fake oil burning firebox in MSTS by setting the coal burn time low, and also the ideal and maximum fire mass settings low. The ideal fire mass should be very close to zero. There would be only one combined control, oil flow/atomizer, which actually is the shovelling speed. If you want to increase the oil flow, you just increase the shovelling speed, but if you increase it too much (fire mass starts to go above zero) you have to turn it down a little (this simulates adjusting the atomizer) and wait for the temperature to increase, and then again increase it. This would happen very fast, like in ten seconds, as opposed to minutes of coal burning engines.

[swhite101]

Lookin' good,

I only discovered this back to front loco a few months ago, not being well versed on American Locos, or having any knowledge prior to MSTS at all ;-) That said I love these novel idea locos and look forward to its release..keep up the good work!

Simon
http://website.lineone.net/~judy33/Trainsim/Index.html

[Idahojeff]

Huh? Novel? IMHO everybody else configured their articulataed locos backwards! Very nice work on the loco. I myself am about done on research and ready to commence construction on some of these http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd54f146dcb256c.jpg
I'll most likely post my questions here (after a thread search of course).I just hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew for my first steam loco project.

Jeff.

RFSPF (Rabidly Foaming Southern Pacific Fan)

[rdfox]

Yeah, but even the SP screwed up and bought a few built backwards, too, didn't they? ;-)

RDF

[wpfan]

I was thinking about one of those too as I had just bought a book on them. Are you planning on doing yours with or without the skyline casing? What class were you thinking of doing?

The voice of insanity in a seemingly normal world.

[Starlight]

this is just for those non americans (god that sounds wrong) that don't quite understand the cab forwards.

These locomotives were built due to a problem. It wasn't uncommon in long tunnels for the engine crews to nearly suffocate...in fact, i think there's a case or two where some did. SP figured that by putting the engine crew first, and then the smokestack, then they could solve this problem in the long tunnels and snowsheds. Visibilty was also a factor. Basically, these locomotives were a mallet locomotive turned back to front. (literally)

There wasn't just one design however, there was one (or two) coal burner cab forwards. These units were most noticable by the small cab at the rear (front?) of the smokebox. I think those locomotives were phased out in favor of the oil burners.

The monkeydeck which you see right before the tender was often a haven for hobos and tramps. There's a problem though, given the way the locomotive was oriented, when the loco entered a tunnel, there was a tremendous downdraft, accompanied with steam and some water. Anyone on the monkeydeck would be scalded to death. (not a pretty sight)

In the end, the Cab Forwards lost out to diesels; though, I think one or two survive to this date. I'm not sure but I think they're currently not in running condition.

[ge44tonner]

As for 'Surviving' examples of a SP Cab-Forward, the only one I am aware of is in the California State Railroad Museum at Sacramento.

[Thirdrail70]

Beautiful work. This engine will be as popular as the Big Boy, well at least for SP fans.

[Idahojeff]

Mt-4 of course, gotta have red and orange ones to pull the San Joaquin Daylight over Tehachapi! And skyline casing too. If it's the book I'm thinking of (The 4300 4-8-2's by Robert J. Church) oh yeah!!! This book sets the standard by which all others should be judged. If you happen to be a SERIOUS student of steam locomotion, by all means get your hands on a copy of this.The research this guy put in to this is INCREDIBLE. It doesn't really matter about your prototype preference either as a lot of the stuff covered applies to modern steam locomotives in general. (Most builders relied on standard appliances from manufacturers like WABCO, Elesco, Worthington, etc..) These are covered in detail as well. Oh... BTW those stars on SP loco axles aren't for ornamentation, they indicate that the engine is equipped with SP patented spring pad lubricators. This is a most educational tome indeed!

Hey! Lookie there, I just wrote a book report.
My english teacher couldn't have got me to do that with a gun to my head (LOL).

Regards,
Jeff.

RFSPF (Rabidly Foaming Southern Pacific Fan)

[swhite101]

LAST EDITED ON May-06-02 AT 07:39AM (EDT)[p]Just a post for non-non Americans ;-) the idea of a "cab forward" was pioneered by an Italian, Guiseppe Zara around 1900.

He designed the class 500 4-6-0, which was a cabforward loco, which was tested in Italy and France, and which later became the Class 671 when fitted with super heaters. The class was withdrawn in the early 1940's.

I'm just off to assemble my scanner to get some stuff in for my next loco project, I'll scan in a picture of this loco at the same time and post it here :-)

Simon
http://website.lineone.net/~judy33/Trainsim/Index.html

[swhite101]

As promised here is the shot..sorry about the quality, the book refused to lie flat, even with pressure from above ;-)

Simon

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd67243038aa23a.jpg

[cjmaclean]

I'd like to see this one, Simon! :D Strangely the "Mucca" (Cow) as she was affectionately called is the only steamer that comes to my mind when I think of Italy ;-) ... Will you do both the pre- and post-refit versions?


D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[nw_fan]

LAST EDITED ON May-06-02 AT 01:33PM (EDT)[p]>Oh yeah, I also have a
>question about the Buckeye trucks
>of the tender, were the
>couplers connected directly the trucks
>as I have seen in
>some pics, or were they
>connected to the tender frame?
>
I cannot speak with complete authority on SP engines, but I have never heard of a truck that had couplers attached to it. The reason is that the tremendous forces applied to a coupler(especially when reversing) can only be managed by attaching the coupler to the frame of the tender. This way the coupler can't twist and move and possibly derail the truck.

Think of the model trains that have truck mounted couplers. The first thing model railroaders with large, very serious layouts do is to body mount the couplers for better operation.

One other thing. You asked about the object under the air pumps... I don't have any pictures of this engine, but my guess is that this is a feedwater heater, although it looks like there is a feedwater heater in the top of the smokebox, behind the stack. I don't know if SP used them, but most large articulateds had them. This is the pump that sent the cold water from the tender to be heated inside a group of pipes that ran through the firebox before dumping it into the boiler. If this were not done, the result would be lowering the temperature (and pressure) of the boiler. One other possibility is a pump for the fuel oil. I'm not certain if this was located in the tender or on the engine. It could also be an injector. These were usually located under the cab, but since the engine was turned around from normal, they would probably have had to put it near the smokebox. Sorry I can't narrow it down better, but I'm not familiar with SP steam.

BTW, super looking loco. Very impressive work.

Mike

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3beb2a23059f2cb2.jpg
Norfolk & Western
Precision Transportation

[cjmaclean]

Some more background on the Mucca...

http://www.skyrocket.de/locomotive/img/fs_670_2.jpg

"Another locomotive which left a deep impression with the visitors at the 1900 Paris World Fair - first and foremost for its unorthodox look. It seemed as if the engine was reversed by 180 degrees - the cab was in front, the viewer looked upon the blunt nose while the windshields were staring at him like the huge eyes of a cow. This promptly earned the locomotive its nickname, "Mucca", the cow. And even while visitors at the fair were still struck dumb by its appearance, back in Italy a sister locomotive began a series of trial runs. The speeding cow reached 126 kph (78 mph) easily.
In order to provide the crew with better visibility and increased comfort, her creator, Italian locomotive engineer Guiseppe Zara, had relocated the locomotive's cab to the front, keeping the engineman and fireman literally ahead of the exhausted smoke and steam, especially within tunnels. The Mucca was a compound engine. The two low-pressure cylinders were located together on one side, the high-pressure cylinders on the other. This design, named "Plancher" after its inventor, was quite common on Italian locomotives of that time. The large firebox could be placed above the leading bogie and did not have to be squeezed low between the drivers as on conventional engines. Coal was stored in two lateral bunkers right behind the cab, while the tender carried only the water and was equipped with a brakeman's cab. In total, one prototype and 42 production engines were built.
These engines were designed in Florence, which was home to the Adriatic Railway's development centre. They were operated on the Adriatic network until 1905. After the nationalization of the Italian railways later that year they continued to serve express trains in the River Po area. The Adriatic numbers 3701 through 3743 were replaced by the National Railways (FS) numbers 670 001 to 670 043. Most were refitted with superheaters and continued to run well into the 1940s."

http://www.skyrocket.de/locomotive/img/fs_670_1.jpg



A few specs:

Wheel arrangement: 2'C (4-6-0) n4v, four-cylinder saturated steam compound engine
Driver diameter: 1920 mm (6.2')
Length: 24.13 m (79.16')
Max speed: 126 kph (78 mph)
Horsepower: 870



D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[mikkox]

>Think of the model trains that
>have truck mounted couplers.

Damn, the pic of the truck I have is a model train one. Well, thanks for solving that question.

>heater, although it looks like
>there is a feedwater heater
>in the top of the
>smokebox, behind the stack.

Yeah, I think the feedwater heater is on the top of the smokebox, because the water tube runs from the tender to there.

>the boiler. One other
>possibility is a pump for
>the fuel oil. I'm

I think the Cab Forwards had the oil tank pressurised from the brake system, thus no need for a pump. I've also seen pics of the AC-9 Yellowstones with the same thing under the pumps, so it isn't a Cab Forward-only appliance. I'll have to do more research on SP engines.

[bnsfrr]

>Mt-4 of course, gotta have red
>and orange ones to pull
>the San Joaquin Daylight over
>Tehachapi!

Just a note: The cabforwards were not painted in the red and orange Daylight, you my be thinking of the GS classes.

Any plans for doing the early cabforwards, ie. the "Mudhen" version?

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c56214c1838beac.gif http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c5621ee1a1d3582.gif http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c5622181ae01336.gif http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c5621b11946046b.gif

MIKE C
Trains from http://tgs.railfan.net/

[E428]

Hi
Just to tell you i'm working on the italian Gr.670... Some screenshots later (now i have only the cab done) and in another post.
And (this is most important) best compliments to Mikkox for this superb creation!
Bye
Niels

[etech]

Gret looking model! I was lucky enough to see #4294 at Sacramento a couple of years back (I think it's the only preserved SP cab forward and it's a non-runner at the moment) and I can't wait to get my hands on your finished MSTS version.

>The highly detailed air pumps and
>other accessories. Does anyone know
>what the thing below the
>pumps does?

I've got a couple of detailed books on cab fowards ('Cab-Forward' by Church and 'Those Amazing Cab Forwards' by Harlan) and they both identify it as a Worthington hot feedwater pump.

Cheers, Nick (Sydney, Australia)

[nw_fan]

I am now pretty certain that the object below the air pumps is the water pump portion of the feedwater heater and the portion visible on top of the boiler is the heat transfer portion of the feedwater heater system. This is my impression after reading about some N&W steamers. Early feedwater heaters used by N&W were positioned on the left side of the boiler and were all one piece (locos from the 1920's). Like this picture shows over the rear driver on the front engine...

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ce343083c210094.jpg

However, later loco's (1940's) were built with the more advanced version, such as on your cab forward and they had two parts... the pump, located under the boiler running boards, near the front (looks like box with pipe coming out of the bottom front in pic below)... and the heat exchange portion, located on top of the boiler, in front of the stack (barely visible in front of stack with pipe running down side of boiler in pic below). Like this...

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ce348ce4cf067ce.jpg

Mike

http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3beb2a23059f2cb2.jpg
Norfolk & Western
Precision Transportation

[etech]

>I am now pretty certain that
>the object below the air
>pumps is the water pump
>portion of the feedwater heater
>and the portion visible on
>top of the boiler is
>the heat transfer portion of
>the feedwater heater system.

I think you're right. I've just found a decent photo of this area of an AC-6 cab forward and it refers to the portion on top of the boiler as the 'Worthington type S feedwater hot water pump spray chamber'. Later cab forwards (#4294 at Sacramento is an AC-12) seem to have slightly different pumps but the layout's the same.

The object below the air pumps is without question the pump itself. Let me know if you're interested in seeing the photos and I'll scan 'em and mail them to you.

Cheers, Nick

[mikkox]

>The object below the air pumps
>is without question the pump
>itself. Let me know if
>you're interested in seeing the
>photos and I'll scan 'em
>and mail them to you.

Yeah, thank you both for the info. And yes, it would be great if you could send me detailed photos of any parts of the locomotive! I have a detailed drawing of only the right side, and pretty much all of the pic I have found on the net. If you have pics of the cab and the controls, please send them too.

[etech]

>Yeah, thank you both for the
>info. And yes, it would
>be great if you could
>send me detailed photos of
>any parts of the locomotive!
>I have a detailed drawing
>of only the right side,
>and pretty much all of
>the pic I have found
>on the net. If you
>have pics of the cab
>and the controls, please send
>them too.

No worries, I have about 500 pages of photos and line drawings so let me know when there's some part you need a close up of and I'll try locate a photo for you. What's the road number of the cab forward you're modelling? There's differences between each of the different types (although the differences between the later versions are really small).

I don't want to fill up your mailbox so I'll keep the scans pretty small. Let me know if you want them bigger !

Cheers, Nick

[mikkox]

>photo for you. What's the
>road number of the cab
>forward you're modelling? There's differences

The last one, and the only one surviving today, the 4294, AC-12 type. I have also notifed the minor differences in detail. Since I am building it as a hiearchy of multiple parts, it will be easy to create the other versions too by changing individual parts that differ. Or maybe even make the AC-9 Yellowstone cab-in-rear. :)

>I don't want to fill up
>your mailbox so I'll keep
>the scans pretty small. Let
>me know if you want
>them bigger !

Okay. Thanks!

[etech]

>I have also
>notifed the minor differences in
>detail. Since I am building
>it as a hiearchy of
>multiple parts, it will be
>easy to create the other
>versions too by changing individual
>parts that differ. Or maybe
>even make the AC-9 Yellowstone
>cab-in-rear. :)

Cool !

>>I don't want to fill up
>>your mailbox so I'll keep
>>the scans pretty small. Let
>>me know if you want
>>them bigger !
>
>Okay. Thanks!

First scans are on their way to you.

Cheers, Nick

[wjbagley]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-02 AT 00:13AM (EDT)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-02 AT 00:12*AM (EDT)

This site has some pictures of Southern Pacific Cab Forward locos. Two of them are of 4294, which is now located in the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.

http://www.ebpm.com/rr/regpix/glry_rr_cabf.html

I just visited the museum last week and it was worth the visit. Old town Sacramento is also worth a look.

Bill

[tulloch]

I am an Australian, and I don't know a lot about your railways (Railroads) but the SP is my fav, and I espcaily like the "Daylight" scheme.

Anyway, your loco is looking great!

[CSX_CW60AC_GregMarck]

lookin great!


Greg Marck
Act. Maker
gregoryis411@hotmail.com

[KeltikSylk]

You reminded me of an entry I saw on a site somewhere...Especially since our overseas comrades aren't familiar with the design.

Apparently the idea may not be American, but originated in Italy of all places...Seems they were having some issues with the Italian Alps. The date they gave was pretty early, 19th Century. Of coures, I can't find the damn site again...

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg


http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cff90bc578f8663.gif http://www.trainsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d0114d872125c5e.gif

[parrotheada1a]

Although I am a certified B&M nut, the ESPEE is king in the west coast. Way to go mikkox! I'll take crack at a doubleheaded AC fruit block over Donner anytime.
Something that comes to mind is about controlling these beasts. Since they were oil burners,It seems that you might play with a diesel's power up curve. Alternately, you might do a software kitbash of that and the handling qualities of the Big Boy. It might get you close enough. Since the last run of one was in the late 50's, there is very little chance that you're gonna find somebody who actually operated one to check this out. Just a thought.

[LordTauk]

I dont know what it is, but there is a strange and mindboggling "beauty" about cabfowards. Anyone else share the same thoughts?

[nw_fan]

I'll tell you, the one thing that I like about certain engines is usually when no one else did it. And did it so well. The cab forwards fall into that category for certain. At least no one did it on the same scale. N&W's compound articulateds are another example of this. No one else used them for as long, or developed them to the refinement that they did. Thee are many examples of similar engines that fit this category. This is, in my opinion, why they captivate us so much.

[hotmetal2]

Ref objects below air pumps in front of smoke box.

This is part of the feed water heater arrangements, the item is the hot water pump.

The pump appears here from AC 6 type on.

reference work "Loco Profiles No. 28" by Profile Publications Ltd.
Publisher no longer exists, can't help with ISBN.

Best of luck with this great loco!

Alan

[Srj28]

ohh
At last!
Someone is going to do an italian cab forward or....
That would be nice:-)

[CSX_CW60AC_GregMarck]

bump.

[harby46]

Does anyone know what the status of this engine is??

What Mikkox has done thus far is beautiful. Hope he keeps up the good work.

Thomas James (Harby46) Harbison

[Derby415]

Yah, what ever happened to this awesome engine?? I was really looking forward to driving her.

[bcdef]

hello everyone,

me to looks like the project has been canceled! it has been so long!
but i am patient and will wait! :)

[Derby415]

Pitty, i was really looking forward to this locomotive; such a nice model too!

[Stooopid_person]

I'm waiting too! ;)

[parrotheada1a]

Perhaps mikkox is waiting till the project is completely finished and debugged before releasing it. Look at Fozzy's stuff! He has set the bar quite high for steamers. If the AC turns out as good as Fozzy's lokies, then it will be worth the wait.:)

[zachattack]

How's it coming?
Zach, future Trinity Railway engineer(I'm only eleven)

[harby46]

Zach:

I've bad news for you. This post is the last anyone has heard from Mikkox and his nearly compleated Cab-Forward. I've tried leaving messages at his private message board and sent eMail messages to him only to have them come back in a week or so, undeliverable. Even Asked Nels Anderson for help! No one know what happened to Mikkox. Back almost a year ago when he posted his porgress report we lost a lot of good modelers for one reasion or another. It was a real dark and bad times for MSTS and thoes gone are a real lost to thoses of us who look forward to their great work and contrubution. Mikkox may have been amoung thoes. Or he could have had a computer failure or hard drive crash loosing everything he had done. I know of at least 5 cases of this happening. At anyrate we will never know for Mikkox has never replied or showed up since his Cab-Forward post.

Sorry. Hopefully with all the great Southern Pacific Routes that are out, about to be released, or are being worked on (Tehachapi Pass Route, Cajon Pass Route, Coastal Daylight Route era 1940, Donner Summit Route, and Shasta Route) maybe someone will model Southern Pacific's AC-12 Cab-Fordward. Who know? Only time will tell!

Happy and Safe Railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[somonenamedchris]

Lookin Great! I will love to have a cab forward in the sim :)

[Hovertrain]

I can't wait till it comes out! I've been waiting for it for a long time!



-Hovertrain

[Hovertrain]

>I can't wait till it comes out!

If it does come out. :|


-Hovertrain

[fwwr2005]

its not coming out the project wass dumped. how do i know? i just do.

[parrotheada1a]

>its not coming out the project wass dumped. how do i know? i
>just do.


Damn shame.

[harby46]

David:

There has been a lot of rumors floating around about another Cab-Forward in the works. Hovertrain and I have been trying to run them down but to no avail. At least not yet! He and I are keeping our ears to the rails. Both of us are in high hopes we'll soon find one in progress. Who knowes?

Would love to see Sacramento Locomotive Works, or Trains Aritisans, or American Locomative Works, or 3D Trains come out with a Southern Pacific AC-12 4-8-8-2 Cab-Forward. The outfits I named makes great stuff --- the best.

If none is in the works by this summer, if I'm finished with building my route I may try my had at buiding one, will need a lot of help though, as I have never done anything more than buildings or telephone poles and the like.

Lets keep our hopes up that one will come out before then or at least one is started by then by someone.

Safe and Happy Railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[fwwr2005]

oh god dont let train artisan do it! you would have to pay for it let nalw do it they are pretty good with steam engines anyway.

[beltontigers]

Train Artisan makes u pay absurd amounts for a few thousand pixels...3DTrains is always pretty reasonable...i would like to see NAWL do it..considering they have built all the other famous steamers :)

[harby46]

Stephen:

I've been thinking about your resonse. If you know something or have contact with Mikkox please let us know what is going on. There were a lot of people looking forward to the Cab-Forward.

Before you answer please consider the following: If Mikkox hit a problem he couldn't solve I'm sure there are a lot of people with the skills and knowledge that would be more than happy to help. If he is, for some reasion, unable to continue the project I'm sure there are those who would take it over for him giving him credit for all his great work. You know it is a crime, even a sin, to recreate something that has already been done and Mikkox has accomplished so much and seemed so close to compleating it.

If everything was lost due to a computer failure, or hard drive crash, or some other hazard. Please let us know and put this issue to rest. There are many who hope that somehow, someway, Mikkox's Cab-Forward is going to show up in the future. This hope may prevent others from starting such a project, or delaying another Cab-Fordward porject for fear that Mikkox's will show up before they are finished with theirs. I for one am in this group, though I have never designed a locomotive, I am considering doing one if I were sure Mikkox's was really gone and wouldn't show up after I've done a lot of work and gone through a lot of frustration for nothing. I have all the blue-prints with demensions for all the classes of Southern Pacific's AC's, AM's, MM's, and MC's Cab-Forward. Before I get a response I know a few of those are not Cab-Forwards.

At anyrate Stephen, if you know something you owe it to us to let everyone know what happened and put this issue to rest. That way maybe someone else will start a Cab-Forward.

Happy and Safe Railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[kevarc]

He's a troll, do not beleive a thing he says. He is one of those who like to appear to know what is going on but is clueless.

[harby46]

Thanks Kevin, Needed to know that. Not sure if that is good or bad, at leat maybe there is still hope. Hope Hoovertrain sees your post.

Tom (harby46) Harbison

[Hovertrain]

>Hope Hoovertrain sees your post.


I see it. I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but he could be right. Maybe something happened and it was lost and Mikkox was so angry about it that he decided not to restart the loco and not inform us of what happened. This is just a scenario though.


-Hovertrain

P.S. I hope that didn't happen.

[YoungLIRR]

how does the coal get into the firebox?

[dcushing]

It doesn't. The Cab-Forwards were oil burners. The AC-9 was the only Southern Pacific "Yellowstone" (2-8-8-4) that burned coal, but then again,it was not a Cab-Forward.

[wp713]

Excuse me, I have to sneeze...AAACCC11hhhooooooooo. Kazunheit
(WP713) S.L.W.
www.SACRAMENTOLOCOMOTIVEWORKS.com

[Hovertrain]

Bless u. Now. when people keep replying to this post, it's like the family member saying their dead relative isn't dead. just my idea.


-Hovertrain

[century242]

I have to agree there. I get my hopes up when I see this appear again and again, and of course again.

Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Ca

SP_MSTS Member
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SP_MSTS

www.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
Bringing 1940s Southern Pacific to the digital age.

[wp713]

Then contact Nels and have him remove it.
(WP713)

[Engineer]

I hope some one can complete this!!!!

[harby46]

Engineer:

There is an AC-11 or AC-12 in the works, tender is complete to the best of my knowledge. Work has started on the Loco. Eric of Sacramento Loco Works is doing it with help from a few others. I have been supplying him with the Blue-Prints and tech. information from Robert Church's book "The Cab Fordward". He is also working on other porjects so it will be a while before complete. Most likely next winter or after the first of the year. However don't count on it because of Murphy's Law, if something can go wrong it will, unforseen porblems pops up, as well as the time you believed you had to work on something suddenly dissapears!

As I have built routes (still working on one) and modified Steam loco. for SP (see the file Library). I know the building porcess takes a lot of time and effort, so be paietent. Eric is a Fireman and work shift that are blocks of days leaving him little time to devote to the creative porcess. Just keep watching for post. Eric also is planing an AC-9 Flat-Nose Cab-Forward after he finishes the AC-12.

Just hang in there and we should have a Cab-Forward for our Southern Pacific routes. My SP route should be out, if all goes well, by next year.

Happy and Safe Railroading to ya.
Tom (Harby46) Harbison

[century242]

Tom,
2 corrections
I drive a towtruck which has the same schedule as a fireman, maybe worse. I only have 4 days off a month. (I am thinking of getting a laptop though which will help)
I was planning on a AC-3 with a whale back after the 12 is done. Then "maybe" an AC-9 from the Rio Grande Division.

Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Ca

SP_MSTS Member
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SP_MSTS

Golden State Virtual Concepts
www.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
Bringing 1940s and 1950s Southern Pacific to the digital age.

[harby46]

Erik:

Good to hear from you. Been watching your post at MSTS Forum site. Sorry I haven't gotten the pictures of the inside of the cab to you. Will get that to you soon. I was unaware of your plans for the AC-3, it along with the AM-2 4-6-6-2 Cab-Forward and whale back tender are my favorite, partly because of the external Steam exhaust along the outside of the smoke box, and because of how the flat face looked. I'm gald you're doing the AC-3 next.

I try to get you the working plans with demensions for the AC-3 to you but that will be awhile. I'm also back to work. I work for farmers, and that is not easy at 56! I work a min. 60 hour week except when planting and harvesting when we may work up to an 80 hour week for short periods of time. We grow rice, wheat, safflower, cotton, and 3 varieties of beans. Thus, it seem we are always planting something or harvesting something. I realy look forward to my 2 to 3 mounths off during the winters wet seasion.

Watch for an eMail in the next several weeks with the picture of the inside of the cab. Best of luck and keep up the good work.

Happy and safe railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[etech]

Hi Erik, Tom,
If you've got access to 'Those Incredible Cab Forwards' by Harlan, there's some excellent detail photographs (including cab interiors) in there. I sent a bunch of these, plus the schematics from Church's 'Cab Forward' to Mikkox before he fell off the forum.

Good luck with the development effort, I'm sure it's a huge undertaking and I can't wait to try out the result.

Best Regards, Nick

[harby46]

Nick:

I don't have that book. Even with all the book I have, pictures of the interior of the cab are rare and good ones almost unheard of. I could only come up with a few from all my books. Maybe you could send what you have to Erik. I'm sure he would appreciate all the help he could get. Yet don't overwhelm him or his eMail site.

Is that book still in print? I just purchase 3 realy great books by John R. Signor "Donner Pass", "SP's Shasta Division", and "Tehachapi" all great books. I'm using them for my route development. Go to "Screen Shot Forum" and do a search for harby46 for my route work.

Anyway my time is very limited as is my resources and all the encouragement and help these great modelers get can do nothing but help!

Happy and Safe Railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[etech]

G'day Tom,
There's a couple of in-cab photos (in the Harlan book) which I haven't seen elsewhere but they're still not great. I would imagine that the only way to get some really good ones would be to get inside #4294 at Sacramento. I'm from Sydney Australia and it was the loco at the California Museum that got me hooked on SP in general and Cab Forwards particularly.

The Harlan book dates from 1983 and I think that there was only one print run as it was self-published. It's not quite up to the quality of the Robert Church's book (the 'blueprint' drawings in Robert Church's book are vastly superior) but if you're an SP man, I'm sure it would look good in your collection ;-).

There's always a few copies listed on www.abe.com and they pop up on ebay very infrequently as well. I suspect that they're quite sought after as they rarely list for less than US$75. FYI, author's full name is George H Harlan and whilst the book doesn't appear to have an ISBN, the Library of Congress Catalogue number is 82-90198. It's 150 pages with black and white photos or line drawings on just about every page.

I have the Tehachapi book in the Signor series and I'd like to pick up the Donner Pass and Shasta books sometime. If they're up to the standard of the Tehachapi book, they must make a great collection!

Have you seen the "Last Cab Forward over Donner Pass" video from Pentrex? That's got some great footage on it that might be of value to you in your route construction. I'll go check out your screen shots shortly !

I'll drop a line to Erik and see if anything that I have might be of use to him.

Best Regards, Nick Edards

[harby46]

Nick:

Thanks for the information, I'll start watching eBay also my collection is missing Robert Church's book "Those Daylights". When I knew him that book was already out of print and sought after. He was trying to fine me a mint one, however passed away before he was able to get me one.

Erik lives in Sacramento and maybe able to visit the Cab Forward there and take pictures. I live just 80 miles north of Sacramento in Colusa.

I'm 56 years old and remember as a child the Cab Forward working the rails between Woodland, California and Willows, California. I also remember the Shasta Daylight in her last years under steam and in color. Just before diesels took over the Shasta Daylight were no longer in Daylight colors. SP claimed it was too hard and too costly to keep them clean because of the tunnels. However I don't think the tunnels on the Shasta route were any worse or more numberious than anyother route. When the E7 and PA came out so did the Daylight colors again. At anyrate this is why I like SP steam so much.

When in Cub Scouts the Den as a group rode the Passenger milk run between Orland, CA and Williams CA. However it was pulled by SP F3 Black Widows.

All three book are of equal quality with lots of quality pictures and cover the routes very well in photos and text. If you like the one you'll like them all.

Happy and Safe Railroading to ya.
Tom (harby46) Harbison

[century242]

Speaking of books, Signor is coming out with a new one. It will be about the Western Division. I had an opportunity to buy both the cab forward and daylight books by Church in November however I only had 50 bucks at the time.
I suppoose today is as good a day to go get cab shots as any day.

Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Ca

SP_MSTS Member
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SP_MSTS

www.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
Bringing 1940s Southern Pacific to the digital age.

[parrotheada1a]

You might also want to pick up Model Railroader's cyclopedia vol 1- Steam Loco's from Kalmbach publishing. The book is a litteral warehouse of everything steam....plus HO scale drawings with a lot of the major prototype dimensions. In addition to the wealth of other goodies in there, in the articulateds section is a few pages on the AC-12.

Jim S.

[century242]

Jim,
I have that book and a few others that have plans.
Nick,
Did you say you had diagrams of the cab interior. I have been in the one at the museum many times, but my cameras are either out of film or batteries are dead when I get there and when I do get pics they come out like crap.

Regards,
Erik Pierson
Sacramento, Ca

SP_MSTS Member
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SP_MSTS

www.sacramentolocomotiveworks.com
Bringing 1940s Southern Pacific to the digital age.

[rowie_nq]

Tom,

That's a shame. :( The Cab Forward would have been the only steam loco in my Trainset folder. I'm not much of a steam fan, but after seeing 4294 in the flesh at the CSRM, it changed my mind regarding SP steamers. Lets hope someone else takes up the challenge.

David