View Full Version : Thinking about Defecting From MSTS (Going to Trainz)
11-17-2001, 06:03 AM
Tucson Coyote here
after a Lot of Considerable thought I myself Probably will be ditching MSTS in Favor for Trainz..(Some of the reasons..)
1. Ease Of Use... Trainz Looks a Lot like a Drag and Drop or Drag and pull System where Track Laying and Scenery design Will Be Easy (And From What I have Heard DEM Data would be a Snap in Surveyor...Thus Routes could be Easily and Quickly assembled with very Little Hassle..
2... Variety.. Trainz has a Variety of Locos and Probably when thrid Party Groups Jump in then passenger and Freight Cars will start to abound...
3.... Flexibility.. Besides Probably Activities you can Build eventually Trainz will incorporate Interactive use with fellow Train Sim People (With Trainz Online..)
in Short for the 50 Bucks I spent On MSTS and the Time and Frustration of MSTS I say that Trainz will be "The Harry Potter" of Train Sims..(Totally Magical, Easy to use and versatile..)
Probably after the New Year I will order it and Have it Shipped (then Wtach the Routes Go..(Wonder if Trainsim.com will have a section for Trainz Routes Cars and the like..)
Just some points of Interest from a Soon To be Defector from MSTS..:-)
11-17-2001, 06:50 AM
I have to wait and see if creating new routes in Trainz is easier than creating new routes in MSTS before defecting from MSTS to Trainz. As far as I know, MSTS works better on Windows XP than on Windows 95/98/ME. Jeffrey.
11-17-2001, 10:54 AM
Trainz looks like it will be a good product but I really don't see what all the hype is about. While some aspects (such as the Surveyor module) are clearly better than MSTS, other aspects of Trainz don't appear to be that outstanding:
1. This idea of a "virtual model railway" seems a little bit strange. The reason behind the small size of real layouts is the fact that no one can ever model a full length route in real life. However, in a computer world, the size of the "layout" is only limited by the amount of data we can store and process in our computers. Therefore, why are Auran only releasing model railway type routes with Trainz when full length routes are possible? While the routes in MSTS aren't necessarily 100% accurate, at least they do provide the opportunity to drive a train over a full size route. I'm not saying that there isn't room for the "virtual model railway" concept, I just won't be interested in Trainz unless someone does some proper full size routes like the ones in MSTS.
2. I have seen nothing to indicate that Auran's models will be anything special. If you look at Auran's MSTS addon, most of the equivalent locos from other sources look much better (eg 3DTrains' F7). I have also downloaded the preview models on Auran's site and I have not been impressed by any of them. Most of the detail looks out of proportion and some of it is incorrect. If you also consider the lack of transparent windows, I think the Auran models look very average and only marginally better than the Kuju ones in MSTS. While I'm sure groups like TrainArtisan will come out with some exceptional Trainz models, I just don't see what the big deal is with the Auran ones.
3. At the moment there doesn't seem to be anything on the Trainz web site about a 3D editor. This means you still need a product like 3D Studio Max to make locomotives, rolling stock and other 3D objects. Producing 3D objects for Trainz will still be a fairly difficult process and I don't see any sudden rush of Trainz models. I think it will be fairly similar to the way add on models for MSTS were released. Overall, while the route building in Trainz appears to be improved, 3D object production looks like it will be much the same for both sims.
4. To me, Trainz doesn't seem to have any clear direction. MSTS concentrates on being a driving simulator and does it reasonably well. Trainz seems to be trying to do everything from layout construction and driving to online gaming, signalling, maintenence and even business. By trying to do so many things, will they really be able to do each individual module properly? I doubt that any of these modules will be as good as a product that concentrates on just one of these areas. For example, can anyone see the Dispatcher module being a better signalling simulation than the Train Dispatcher series?
5. The initial release seems very limited (just building layouts and an "explore" style mode in Driver). You will have to wait for Yardmaster before you get activities, better signalling, the ability to save and a number of other options. The initial release of Trainz doesn't have as many options as MSTS, yet it costs more. Unless I am mistaken, you also have to buy Yardmaster in addition to Trainz. In my opinion, I think Auran should have waited until Yardmaster was complete so they could include it with the initial release.
6. Many people seem to be saying that MSTS is filled with bugs and is absolutely unplayable. Honestly, I really don't know where your problems are coming from. My system is a PII400, 320mb RAM, 48gb hard drive space (2 drives), GeForce 2 MX and Win98SE. I have been using MSTS since late August and I have installed over 5gb of 3rd party addons. The only real problem I have found is the uncoupling bug which shows up in three locations on the Marias Pass route. The game has only crashed a few times. These occured while I was editing a cab and once when I forgot to alias the sound and cabview gp38 folders for an SD40. On the whole, I have found the game to be very stable with only minor bugs. Considering that this is a first release program and there haven't really been any others like it, MSTS is a very good product. For those who are expecting Trainz to be bug free, I really don't know where you get this idea from. Every program has its bugs and it would be extremely unlikely that the beta testers will find all of them.
Victorian Railfan Web Site:
11-17-2001, 12:26 PM
Definatley go for Trainz it's loads better than MSTS.
CEO, British High Speed Trains
LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-01 AT 01:03PM (EST)[p]It's far too early to say which will be best - in fact I would prefer not to, ever. I am too much into MTS to ever delete it having constructed one route and now building another. I will enjoy Trainz too for what it offers and certainly, apart from the lack of continental European passenger rolling stock, offers a fairly good initial collection of diesel and electric traction.
As regards route creation in Trainz, well it *is* different to that in MTS, if I had to make a comparison I would say MTS is the Technical Drawing class and Trainz is the Art class. I have no doubt some longer prototype routes will be forthcoming in Trainz but please remember that has never been the stated objective of Auran. From the outset Trainz has been touted as a Virtual Model Railroad - more so certainly than 3D Railroad Master - with the emphasis being on designing 3D worlds where you can operate your collection of rolling stock.
I agree that the specification for Yardmaster sounds more like Driver + and hope that, i. Yardmaster will follow on very quickly and, ii. It will be reasonably priced, certainly no more than GBP£15-20 in order to get the functionality in there people are expecting. Even a condensed "model" needs to run to a timetable!
Like many people in the train sim community I'm still frustrated that what we really want - an updating of the almost perfect Train Driver 3 programme - has yet to become a reality. MTS in all its excellence is just a bit too technical for many casual users to sit down and do routes. Trainz while being an enjoyable experience also goes wide of the mark.
11-17-2001, 05:52 PM
Don't forget that MSTS has only been out for a few months. I'm convinced that if we give people some more time we will see a plethora of add-on programs, as opposed to just locomotives and rolling-stock. Just look at what is available for the Microsoft Flight Simulator.
And I'm convinced that we will see third party graphical route editors that are easy to use. Just give MSTS some more time....
The forthcoming TsTool from DCM should do exactly that! Being able to set up your contours and markers in a GUI interface before entering the 3D Editor will be a Godsend.
11-19-2001, 06:27 AM
Vern said: "Like many people in the train sim community I'm still frustrated that what we really want - an updating of the almost perfect Train Driver 3 programme - has yet to become a reality. MTS in all its excellence is just a bit too technical for many casual users to sit down and do routes. Trainz while being an enjoyable experience also goes wide of the mark."
Hi Vern, I have never used Train Driver 3 or any of this series, but just out of interest what did you find nearly perfect about TD3 that is missing in for example Trainz (with all it's future functionality, not just the first release), and why does Trainz go wide of the mark for you personally, when all the other beta testers are raving about it? :)
Well you really need to have played Train Driver 3 to understand my terms of reference on this - which I hasten to add were not meant to denigrate MTS or Trainz in any way. With TD3 you had an excellent selection of routes and motive power. In the last version released by Paul Robins you could make up your own consist. You could define the timetable including adjustment of arrival, departure and dwell times at intermediate stations. You could select fixed or random weather conditions. You could choose a difficulty level from 1 - 9 which determined the frequency of speed restrictions, signal checks and on multiple track routes whether you got switched to the slow lines.
The graphics were basic but you still got a sense of driving a train - some of the motive power had ironwork for the cab window and "nose" created in Deluxe Paint. The sounds were great - with traction horn and track sound (where necessary).
The route editor, though requiring some thought, was fairly simple to use and had an essentially GUI interface so long as you understand Amiga Workbench. It was easy to add new motive power including sounds.
I have not yet reviewed Trainz and it would be inappropriate and indeed a breach of NDA to base comments on the Beta test. However I can look at and am free to comment on the specification for Driver. Many of the features desired will not be added until Yardmaster comes along. No matter how good the editor is (and it *is* good), no matter how swish the graphics and sound - the success of Trainz for the serious rail sim fan will hinge on getting some if not all of the above elements into Driver. Driver module will be the key to Trainz success (or otherwise). If it's a good experience then users will be encouraged to go into Surveyor and create routes/layouts. If not, then they will be less inclined to do so.
11-20-2001, 08:09 AM
Yep, I see where you're coming from here. However I think you hit the nail on the head when you said about TD3; 'the graphics were basic...', in that today with the processing power we have at our disposal, much more development time is spent on making attractive graphics. I don't see how within the constraints of a reasonable time scale, we can possibly hope to include everything we want first time around. MSTS looks great but lacks some functionality and useability (that no end of third party add-ons will fix). Auran have adopted IMHO a more realistic (time-wise) modular approach which means that the Trainz platform will be built on gradually.
Naturally some will dismiss Trainz on the first release saying 'well it doesn't do this or that', but it's only when we see the big picture can we understand where it's coming from (and going to). The latest 'Inside Track' article from CEO Greg Lane (http://www.auran.com/trainz/insidetrack.htm) really puts things into perspective, and I think everyone who is considering Trainz or comparing it with other products would do well to read it.
One thing is sure, the next 2 or 3 years are going to be very interesting for train-simmers :).
And of course by the time the long routes are created for Trainz, Yardmaster will be with us anyway!
11-20-2001, 02:17 PM
And the latest Error to hit me in the route editor has pushed me that one step closer to jumping on the Trainz ship... The only thing stopping me are all the great trains that have been built for MSTS..If i didnt have them the game would be it gone in a blink of any eye ....This route editor has driven me nuts..
LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-01 AT 04:04PM (EST)[p]Of course the main factor of better graphics is that far more time must be spent on the Editor to get reasonable results. You're not just laying the rail route but putting the road infrastructure in place. I'm currently moving up my Far North route building the terrain, putting in roads, rivers and bridges. Putting up the hills is quick, but laying those bloody roads takes forever - if it's to be done right, almost as long as the track. The roads can't be ignored as they often provide a visual clue to other items of scenery placement.
Some decent music helps (I'm currently working through the Mike & The Mechanics collection) and plenty of coffee/beer depending on the time of day.
That will be a factor in Trainz, as well as MTS. Don't underestimate the time it will take to detail and flesh out a prototype route.
11-24-2001, 09:07 AM
I'm just curious why so many seem to be "Defecting" from MSTS
to TrainZ? I have thought about it over, and over, but it
doesn't add up..... Do people really play favorites in their
It's like, I have 4 3D modeling programs, and 2 paint programs.
I didn't through the others away just because something new came
out. In fact I use all of them.... One may work better for one
thing, while yet the other does something else...
I agree that MSTS has some problems, but please tell me what
program doesn't? There will be bugs in Trainz as well, like it
or not. If they are in there, believe me, I for one will find
them.... But, I will find a work around for them as well.....
I say, MSTS, and Trainz, shake hands........ Nice to meet ya's...
I for one will be enjoying both.... :)
11-24-2001, 06:27 PM
Patrick, I agree with you about MSTS and Trainz. I got Train Sim Modeler a few days ago and I'm creating NYCTA subway cars in a few hours!!! Jeffrey.
11-24-2001, 10:20 PM
As a Trainz beta tester I am very excited about Trainz but I will definitelly not remove the MSTS from my hard drive. Both programs will share the space on it together with the great Japanese train sim BVE and other train sims that might appear. I was always under the impression that more train sims will mean more variety and better deal for us users. It would be stupid to get rid of a perfectly good sim like MSTS just because some aspects of it are not as good as they might have been. Throwing it away and telling everyone about it is just the right thign to do - if one does not want to see the MSTS 2 out. And I would certainly like to see the 2nd version out sometime next year.
11-25-2001, 04:59 AM
To late for me.. Cleaned my hard drive of anything MSTS related and am now going to have a 2 week break (game wise) from anything train related.. I figure Trainz should be on my door step by then and then its time to finnaly create a route without loosing all of it...
Even if there is a MSTS 2 ..I wont be buying just based on how fked up ther first one was....
11-25-2001, 06:09 PM
Quote:-Don't underestimate the time it will take to detail and flesh out a prototype route.
Well, I for one can advise that the amount of time required to provide a level of detail necessary to give character and flavour to a route in Trainz is a fraction of that required in MSTS.
An additional benefit is that it's a relaxing, pleasant pastime.
11-25-2001, 06:16 PM
Quote:-Even if there is a MSTS 2 ..I wont be buying...
The only person possibly losing out will be yourself. That's a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" approach if ever I've seen it!
The Flight Simulator evolution is one of the best examples of exactly that....evolution, and improvement at each step.
The first example was a wonderful simulation irrespective of the fact that it was imperfect, frustrating in what it didn't include and sometimes irritating to the extreme.
But it was the keystone to what followed and each upgrade has been an excellent product, but certainly not perfection in a box.
Give up on MSTS and you will be the loser.
11-26-2001, 05:45 AM
LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-01 AT 05:49AM (EST)[p]Hmm Brucek.. Your a spinna :-)
In your reply to me you say Im the one loosing out if i choose to not carry on with MSTS 2.. Well the way i see it MSTS 2 will loose out for they wont be getting my money.. And after having played FS2002 ..I cant see what all the fuss is about..Looks just as "Real As It Gets" as MSTS does and therefore it hasnt given me much hope for what will show in MSTS 2 (..if that ever pops up...) And if somehow Auran Trainz turns out to be a total cock up as well... That to will get the shaft just as quick. Sick of buying games that arent worth the loading time.. (IF someone developes and makes a game, Most folk expect it to work!)
Then in your next post to Vern you say...
"Well, I for one can advise that the amount of time required to provide a level of detail necessary to give character and flavour to a route in Trainz is a fraction of that required in MSTS.
An additional benefit is that it's a relaxing, pleasant pastime."
Its your second post that is the reasons why im leaving MSTS, (along with the fact the the MSTS editors are pure hell to work with) .The screen shots from all the Beta routes so far have had me fuming about the landscapes and railways ive lost thanks to MSTS.
MSTS has a huge budget and I imagine staff to boot... So why they havent jumped on the problems of this game yet is beyond me. To me it just shows how much they care....So I'll care just as much in return....
11-27-2001, 08:55 AM
I'm keeping msts on my hd, though I cant see spending much time in the editors. In a couple of months when yardmaster comes out? who knows, msts might go, hard to predict the future.
11-28-2001, 06:19 AM
Methinks I will still be playing around with Marias Pass and the Northeast Corridor AND the East Metro and anything else that might come along that tickles my fancy for quite some time yet. I've never even TRIED to work the editors in MSTS, just been frightened off by all the horror stories. :( If buiding routes with Surveyor is as easy as everyone claims it is (I'm just going to ignore all the hoopla and give Auran the benifit of the doubt and try it out myself and form my OWN opinion), then perhaps I myself can begin construction of the Michigan and Northern Ohio routes which I had hoped would come into fruition via MSTS but never did!
11-28-2001, 03:34 PM
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-01 AT 03:37PM (EST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-01
>AT 05:49*AM (EST)
>MSTS has a huge budget and
>I imagine staff to boot...
>So why they havent jumped
>on the problems of this
>game yet is beyond me.
>To me it just shows
>how much they care....So I'll
>care just as much in
Bow I do think its a shame you gave up the MTS but I for one will be keeping it on the HD I do have major problems with it crashing and dont even bother with making activities and Routes due to problems much like what you have experienced. And to think that they cant even get a damn simple thing as File associations write yet they still release the game. Yet I still like it and download not as often mind due to size on HD the locos and rolling stock and or routes. It will be a shame that you disapear from the MTS but its your decision. On the better hand I am looking forward to Boweavels Freight yards so they can be " worked " in to routes!!!!!!!!
Microsofts "as real as it gets" well I think Microsoft has a way to go b4 they can actually justify the use of it. But we will see. I will be having both on PC just have to check to see how large trainz is at first.
Anyway to be honest these peeps that will hold judge ment on trainz until they see it for them selves fair enough and good on you. At the end of the day if you havent seen or downloaded the Surveyor videos or managed to see a snippet of the 3 minute trainz video or the Tv-AD ( if you live in OZ you should have by now :) ) But the decosion is yours at the end of the day. If you buy Trainz and you dont like it fair enough take it back get your money back and dont worry.
To all those people who think this is a trainz vs MTS reply then get a life and stop trying to look for an argument where there isnt one.
"The futures not set..... theres no fate but what we make"
11-28-2001, 07:56 PM
>Anyway to be honest these peeps
>that will hold judge ment
>on trainz until they see
>it for them selves fair
>enough and good on you.
> At the end of
>the day if you havent
>seen or downloaded the
>Surveyor videos or managed to
>see a snippet of the
>3 minute trainz video or
>the Tv-AD ( if you
>live in OZ you should
>have by now :)
>) But the decosion
>is yours at the end
>of the day. If
>you buy Trainz and you
>dont like it fair enough
>take it back get your
>money back and dont worry.
Well I have watched quite a few of the Surveyor Movies (oops, Moviez! sorry! :P ) and have been quite impressed with what I saw, yet my skeptical side still loves to chime in and say "Beware, these fellas ARE trying to sell their wares, y'know!". But what has REALLY impressed me about this product more than anything is the fact that the "bigwigs" at Auran act like they ARE willing to listen to customer feedback and they DO respond to questions, comments, and concerns. MS and Kuju should have included a turn-of-the-centruy New York Central route in MSTS. They're obviously a fan of Cornelius Vanderbilt since apparantly they have taken a "The public be damned!" attitude with MSTS. :(
11-28-2001, 09:19 PM
I stop using MSTS as soon as I tried designing a route. Trainz Surveyor appears to be a thousand times easier. So it was a no brainer!
11-28-2001, 10:32 PM
I am going to compare this issue to what I deal with daily....
Like it or not the market dictates the value of an item (and shelf life). Take automobiles for example....
I can offer you a 2 year old Ford Taurus for 1/2 of what it sold for new.....or I can offer you a 2 year old Honda Accord for roughly 25-30 percent less than what it cost new. Did I do that? No....the used car market (the people buying used cars) dictated the value.
A year from now (or even 6 months) lets all step back and revisit this issue and see what value the market puts on a used copy of MSTS. All these people creating routes for MSTS will compare the two editors and decide which one they find to have the greatest value to them personally.
Honda Automobiles didn't get their consistent (higher) resale values overnight, they earned them over time. Let's all step back and see what we think 6 months from now.
(my examples are for the US car market and I am not trying to sell anybody a car ;) )
11-29-2001, 02:39 PM
Yeah thats exactly my Point. I have been conversing with John Banks via email now for the past few days and again a few weeks ago as well. Although he seems as though he is a moderator and Auran CEO( soz if I havent got your "jb description" correct Jon :D ) And I haved asked him loads of questions and bits and bobs and he has answered every one of them.... by return email.... Yeah fair enough he can take Microsofts attitutde and be damned with us all and totally ignore us. But him and the guys at Auran are good and answer us back via email or the occasional glimps in this or Aurans forum. Now where do you manage to get Bills email and talk to him about Microsofts Train Sim. Where whats the point. Most people who Bought Microsoft Train sim did so be cause of the name Microsoft...... was added to the train sim as they are the publishers of this software and they are avid fans of the FS series ( as well as there are some hard core train nuts like me as well). But most people who buy trainz are not buying it for Auran's name.... Sorry but who are Auran what major software have they released that you can roll off your tongue ( no offence Auran you will see my point). Sorry but I have never heard of them upto the point that I knew about trainz being in devolpment Most people who will be buying Trainz will be buying it because of the software content and of what most of them have seen on the web site and of the moviez they have downloaded. Yeah I am also aware that I will put some peoples nose's out of joint by the above statement about Microsoft but face it its true. Yes I bought it as apart from liking Trains I also felt the lack of decent train-sims and here comes Microsft charging £50 or dollars for a piece of beta test off cut when some third party designers can actually make better routes than Kuju. I have said b4 I like MTS but the consistant crashing is damn right annoying and MTS refusal to bring out a patch to address the problems is a damn right crime...... so what do they do.... they release Microsoft Train sim 2002 and and add another 15 $ or £ onto it. (although thats pure speculation theres no proof that Micro bucks will release a second third or even fourth version). I would and yes I know its hypocritical of me buy it..... but if I dont like it it goes back to the shop. sorry more of my 2 cents worth. I can understand why Boweavel and Drucifer have jacked in with MTS.
"The futures not set..... theres no fate but what we make"
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