View Full Version : Are there going to be.....................
OTTODAD
09-22-2007, 01:19 PM
Hi Matthew !
I think that what most of us are going to do is retain MSTS until the new train simulators from KUJU and MS offer a similar variety of routes and rolling stock.
You can bet your bottom dollar that the third party payware vendors will want a slice of that cake, after having learned how to create add-ons for them ! :7
O t t o
USRailFan
09-22-2007, 01:41 PM
Considering that well-known 3rd-party manufacturers like German Railroads and 3DTrainStuff are already working with Kuju on the "default" stuff for KRS, I think you can bet there'll be third-party stuff. Perhaps even quite soon after release.
headnet14
09-23-2007, 11:03 AM
i look forward to it.......!!!
headnet14
09-25-2007, 12:25 PM
wonder what kind of addons will be published?
OTTODAD
09-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Time will tell ! ;-)
O t t o
TrainMan_112
09-25-2007, 05:58 PM
No message
OTTODAD
09-25-2007, 07:19 PM
No message
USRailFan
10-02-2007, 11:00 AM
Probably trainsets and routes, mainly.
OTTODAD
10-02-2007, 03:14 PM
No message
TrainMan_112
10-02-2007, 07:56 PM
>But, this simulator will have NO FREEWARE
>CONTENT EVER DEVELOPED!!!! /sarcasm. It's common
>sense.
>
>Why no Freeware add-ons ?
>
>Because they can not use proprietary KRS objects like we can
>with the MSTS Installme.bat and Freeware creators would have
>to create their own ?
>
>O t t o
>
Sorry, Otto, I was being sarcastic. But yes, 3rd party content will be produced.
TrainMan_112
10-02-2007, 07:58 PM
No message
sniper297
10-02-2007, 09:25 PM
No message
boldri
10-03-2007, 02:04 AM
...time of downloading 3D Canvas has come. Try to make something to KRS yourself, mate..:-)
Until KUJU release content creation guide, we 3d newbies have time to try to handle this program enough to produce our first box..:-D
headnet14
10-03-2007, 05:25 AM
......................any 3rd party addon makers for when kuju railway sim is released?
because i think after a while that people might get fed up of driving the same trains over and over again.
id realy like to see the class 90 and class 185 being made for simulator.
or are we gonna have to stick with msts with a world full of freeware addons?
AdamL
10-03-2007, 05:29 AM
Hi Everyone,
I have removed the unrelated discussion from this thread after several complaints. A simple mis-understanding sent things wildly off topic and ended with a completely unjustified rant about a member.
In answer to the thread, there certainly are a number of 3rd Party Developers working on Rail Simulator addons. The reason for such silence though is due to the fact that we havent published the details about the commercial license scheme as yet, so other developers may be holding back to see this before committing themselves.
We will have these details for everyone shortly.
Cheers
KujuAdam | www.railsimulator.com
OTTODAD
10-03-2007, 08:55 AM
No problem, Jordan !
However, the question of whether Freeware KRS routes add-ons can be created for distribution remains un-answered and will have to wait and see what the KRS EUL specifies !
Commercially it does make little sense for KUJU to spend a lot of it's backers money on creating KRS, nor licensed third-party Payware vendors doing the same, if everybody could use all that their creations contain for free to create Freeware routes with ! ;-)
Anything which is NOT part of KRS or is NOT provided by add-on third-party vendors can be created and distributed as add-on Freeware, as can be done in MSFS, using the paid for and licensed to the individual user's simulator, but is still subject to Copyright as is all other Intellectual Property !
If KUJU were to provide a limited library of scenery and other objects for unrestricted freeware use then that would be another matter, Freeware creators making their own objects if the available ones are not sufficient to make quality add-on routes with !
I hope I making more sense this time ? ;-)
If this should require further clarification then my son's Software Copyright lawyers will be asked to look into the Copyright aspects of KRS after it's publication next week and I get my copy of it !
Please use my "Send E-Mail" icon if you would like to comment on what I have said here, as further discussions on the subject of Freeware are pointless until we know what KUJU intends to do about it !
O t t o
oakpalms
10-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Otto,
I think Kuju has been saying all along that freeware and payware development was something that would be supported. After all, freeware and payware contributions simply push the number of sales of KRS itself. It would be foolhardy for KRS to limit the number of sales by disallowing freeware content. Just look at the number of freeware products available for MSTS which have to increase the number of addons as well as sales of MSTS.
I know for me, I would not have taken such a great interest in MSTS were it not for Bob Wirth's great ATSF routes as well as the Marias Pass remake.
Bob Edwards
OTTODAD
10-03-2007, 12:18 PM
Yes Bob, there are more than one way to look at a project's business plans, from the Accountants point of view, I am one of, the producer's or it's customers !
Microsoft did not anticipate the avalanche of freeware add-ons for MSTS and if it had would have made sure that it gets all the income from add-ons it can, restricting the creation of add-ons to licensed third-party vendors or KUJU themselves, which at that time did not have the manpower to do that.
Had Microsoft done that then we could now have MSTS-2 and perhaps even MSTS-3 ? ;-)
As it happened, M$ took their eyes of the MSTS ball, having had lots of other problems in their gaming divisions to sort out and the rest as they say is history !
You can not invest in further developments unless you make plenty of money from existing projects ! ;-)
Lets wait and see what KRS are going to do about freeware add-ons !
O.K., there is going to be a better WORLD EDITOR for creating routes with, but not much is known at this stage about what you can do with it, other than laying tracks and placing some gantries !
O t t o
P.S.: There is another angle to be considered where add-ons are concerned. I have purchased many Payware add-on routes and rolling stock, most of them not worth the money spent on them compared to the quality of some Freeware ones, like the WUPPER-EXPRESS 11 and their STADTBAHN-U79, to mention but two examples, which in my opinion are superior to anything German Railroads, Pro-Train or TML Studios have produced ! ;-)
There are also many Freeware add-ons and rolling stock I had to bin after installing and testing them.
I think that KRS should impose strict quality controls on anything to be used for it, be that Payware or Freeware !
>Microsoft did not anticipate the avalanche of freeware add-ons for MSTS and if it had would have made sure that it gets all
>the income from add-ons it can, restricting the creation of add-ons to licensed third-party vendors or KUJU themselves,
>which at that time did not have the manpower to do that.
I don't believe this to be true. If it were, then we would have seen evidence of this in the FS franchise.
Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]
Pro Series v4.0 SuperPacks
josefpav
10-03-2007, 09:46 PM
>Considering that well-known 3rd-party manufacturers like
>German Railroads and 3DTrainStuff are already working with
>Kuju on the "default" stuff for KRS, I think you can
>bet there'll be third-party stuff. Perhaps even quite soon
>after release.
GR definately took distance from add on development for KRS. They are just waiting if it flops or if a serious customer base will develop. (I dont't believe this will happen).
TrainMan_112
10-03-2007, 10:05 PM
>
>No problem, Jordan !
>
>However, the question of whether Freeware KRS routes
>add-ons can be created for distribution remains un-answered
>and will have to wait and see what the KRS EUL specifies !
>
>Commercially it does make little sense for KUJU to spend a lot
>of it's backers money on creating KRS, nor licensed
>third-party Payware vendors doing the same, if everybody could
>use all that their creations contain for free to create
>Freeware routes with ! ;-)
>
>Anything which is NOT part of KRS or is NOT provided by add-on
>third-party vendors can be created and distributed as add-on
>Freeware, as can be done in MSFS, using the paid for and
>licensed to the individual user's simulator, but is still
>subject to Copyright as is all other Intellectual Property !
>
>If KUJU were to provide a limited library of scenery and other
>objects for unrestricted freeware use then that would be
>another matter, Freeware creators making their own objects if
>the available ones are not sufficient to make quality add-on
>routes with !
>
>I hope I making more sense this time ? ;-)
>
>If this should require further clarification then my son's
>Software Copyright lawyers will be asked to look into the
>Copyright aspects of KRS after it's publication next week and
>I get my copy of it !
>
>Please use my "Send E-Mail" icon if you would like
>to comment on what I have said here, as further discussions on
>the subject of Freeware are pointless until we know what KUJU
>intends to do about it !
>
>O t t o
Well, third party content is essential to the long-term survival of any simulation product. Imagine what it would be like if we were still running the geep and the dash 9 on Marias. It seems like Kuju understands this. I don't see any barriers in the way of creating additional content.
TrainMan_112
10-03-2007, 10:11 PM
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I have removed the unrelated discussion from this thread after
>several complaints. A simple mis-understanding sent things
>wildly off topic and ended with a completely unjustified rant
>about a member.
>
>
>In answer to the thread, there certainly are a number of 3rd
>Party Developers working on Rail Simulator addons. The reason
>for such silence though is due to the fact that we havent
>published the details about the commercial license scheme as
>yet, so other developers may be holding back to see this
>before committing themselves.
>
>We will have these details for everyone shortly.
>
>Cheers
>KujuAdam | www.railsimulator.com
Well, if you're planning on a release BEFORE this coming Christmas, you would think these details would be here already. But hey, that's fine. But let's just say that I can't wait for the details on how the US Version will work. I check this forum every day!!!
OTTODAD
10-04-2007, 08:34 AM
Hi Jordan !
I can not see any problems with Freeware rolling stock add-ons either, as long as they are not re-skinned copies of Payware ones, or are freeware ones permitted to be altered, the same as is being done with freeware add-on airplanes for the MS Flight Simulator. But re-built with new buildings airports or re-sculptured terrain are Payware, taking a lot of time, effort and resources to create !
To create an add-on route you need objects for it.
Creating a country specific route you need buildings which represent those in existence in that country, period or modern, but terrain data for it can be downloaded, freeware or payware. Unless the former are available as open source and can be used by any vendor, payware or freeware, they will have to be created by those making the routes.
KUJU licensing Payware third-party add-on creators could include the right to use it's objects in their routes, but do not know as yet whether that applies to third-party Freeware creators also and shall have to wait and see what KUJU says in it's EUL !
@ Marc: At the time of M$ considering MSTS-1.2 KUJU advertised for graphics programmers to help them create a new version of MSTS using an updated graphics engine, telling me that they would not be using somebody else's they would have had to pay for, their business then not having been profitable for some time, their acquired from from going public capital dwindling rapidly, I reported here in the forums then.
Not being able to do so KUJU then handed the franchise back to M$ who approached David Greig of AURAN who also turned it down. He told me that in an e-mail at the time, asking me would I be interested to become one of their testers. But TRAINZ did not appeal to me then and still doesn't because of it's out-of-the-box tracks ! ;-)
It is interesting to watch the goings on in world-wide business and analyze underlying trends in commerce. "Restructuring" usually means "Cutting Losses" or increase profitability !
I am mentioning the above to demonstrate what is involved in creating a financially successful project and am grateful that KUJU once again stick their necks out, having another go with a Train Simulator and unless all of us support their and others KRS payware vendors then there will be no long-term future for KRS either ! :-(
O t t o
http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/124122.jpg
rgarber
10-04-2007, 09:03 AM
It be more pleasant if this process had some fairness to it. Some vendors are receiving info just based on a response to post in a forum. I for one have sent an email to Tim and haven't heard anything back even though I provided cooperation back in February with a signed NDA. Some consistency in this process would be deeply appreciated.
AdamL
10-04-2007, 09:05 AM
Hi Trainman,
What is it that your would like to know about 'how the US version will work'?
Cheers
RSadam | www.railsimulator.com
moose49
10-04-2007, 10:09 AM
>Hi Trainman,
>
>What is it that your would like to know about 'how the US
>version will work'?
>
>Cheers
>RSadam | www.railsimulator.com
Just putting my 2 cents in here. I don't really want to known how it all works. But you folks should have been talking to R. Garber, M. Nelson, and the other aftermarket developers along time ago so they could have already done some developement. As it stands right now I have no real interest in your new sim due to no recomedations from the developers I have come to know and trust. With only one N.A. route there is not alot so far that interests me. Hopefully you folks will start communicating with the aftermarket and your customers in a usefull way soon! Otherwise given KUJU's track record and lack of meaningfull dialog with MSTS-1 and now KRS I shall await Microsofts new simulator.
TrainMan_112
10-04-2007, 10:19 AM
>Hi Trainman,
>
>What is it that your would like to know about 'how the US
>version will work'?
>
>Cheers
>RSadam | www.railsimulator.com
Well, I suppose I'm just awaiting your 'unveling' of the US Version. As of now, we don't really know a whole lot about it. Besides what we've gathered from the shots, the rest is left for speculation.
Is this 'unveling' happening soon?
I'm personally fed up with MSTS, we all need something a bit better. With the ease of the editing tools, additional content should be on the way in no time.
USRailFan
10-04-2007, 12:24 PM
Uhm, German Railroads are making the included German route and add-ons for KRS - at least that is what has been said earlier.
OTTODAD
10-04-2007, 05:55 PM
There is something else which is being overlooked where add-ons are concerned, payware or freeware.
Most railway train lovers of all ages have purchased MSTS from retail outlets like I did back in 2001, either brick and mortar or online ones, having been made aware of it by a few advertisements in computer and games magazines, or have noticed it on shops shelves.
At the time of buying MSTS they were not aware of the availability of freeware add-ons, there being a total lack of referrals to web sites offering them in games magazines and in the MSTS documentation.
It was only by accident that later I became aware of train sim web sites like Ts.com, I have been a member of since 2002, UK-TS and others after doing research on related subjects.
How many potential train sim software customers are aware of these web sites and after looking at their File Libraries then decide to purchase MSTS to get the benefit of all the freeware available ?
KRS has the edge there now, many of the million MSTS users being aware of it from the train sim web sites they visit, but a combined total of perhaps 50000 forum members in the US, UK and German train sim forums, some of them buying KRS Europe, will not repay KUJU and their backers investment and show a profit on top of that.
Have any of you seen any mention in the hard copy computing or gaming media anywhere, announcing the forthcoming launch of KRS ?
What is lacking is a dedicated to Simulators magazine, covering not only Flight Simulators like PcPILOT does but also others, be that trains, motor and rally racing, etc !
O t t o
With few exceptions, most purchasers of past games haven't a clue there's a means to expand, and as you, come across sites, like this one, purely by accident. Advertising in mags is pretty expensive, several hundred dollars for a small 1/8 page blurb, which is enough to keep vendors away from reaching a larger audience. This is probably the reason you see only a few ads for 3rd party content in print media. Monthly ads in MRR and Trains averages $700 per issue (1/4 page IIRC), and even more for larger ads, specific placement, color, and issues nearing the holidays.
As for print media itself, having a traditional magazine dedicated to train simulators is unlikely, as the start up costs for the first issue alone will probably reach $1M (a full glossy 'zine, with pretty pictures and quality weight of paper). Getting adverts for such a narrow field to help support future issues just isn't there at the moment, even if you include other game genres. Any periodical, whether monthly, quarterly, or bi-annually) will lose money with each printing unless it's mostly ads with little content. IMHO, 90% ads would allow the mag to break even. Many wouldn't even consider purchasing something with such little content - catch-22.
For me, it would be neat to go down to the local book store and pick up a copy of "Train Simulator Monthly", as personally, I find no greater joy than to spend several hours reading books and magazines. However, the traditional paper stuff is slowly being replaced by electronic media - some already appearing on the scene - and although mostly unpolished and/or disorganized, I believe these will improve over time. Nevertheless, the way of traditional print has passed.
Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]
Pro Series v4.0 SuperPacks
jovet
10-05-2007, 02:44 PM
I think Otto's suggestion was for an all-encompassing "simulators" magazine: flight sims, train sims, boat sims, etc.
But...don't you all know?.. there's a magazine for everything! It's really quite nuts, at least in the USA. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is already some kind of printed "sim" magazine.
OTTODAD
10-05-2007, 04:36 PM
Yes, Marc has a point about hard copy getting fewer because of much info being available for nothing on the Internet, but not all know how to GOOGLE for !
Here we go again, Freeware killing the goose which laid the golden egg ! :-(
I too like reading about computing, trains and planes in every magazine I can lay my hands on here in UK stores and when in the States in Barnes & Noble ones !
Years ago I managed to get the editor of the PcPilot to publish my article with a picture of the PIEngineering X-Keys pads for use with MSTS and MSFS and a similar publication like this could increase it's appeal if it were to include Train Sim matters as well as Flight Sim ones, PcSimulators ? ;-)
I can just see the cover of such a magazine on the shelves, showing a glossy picture of KRS and inside it a review of it, costing nothing !
It would attract advertisements from major KRS payware add-on vendors like it does with FS payware vendors such as Megascenery in PcPilot and also hardware consoles manufacturers ?
Years ago, when creating my web site, I thought of creating a multilingual Train Simulator web site to list what is available and where, payware as well as freeware, quality testing add-ons before adding them, charging a nominal fee to payware vendors.
But health matters getting in the way stopped me doing it and now I am too old to start one !
But that gives me a thought ! Perhaps I should plant the idea of such a magazine into the heads of the PcPilot owners ? ;-)
O t t o
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