Erratic Cab Switching with BIN - Suggestion for Bin George.

[tpilot]

I understand how this is supposed to work, but I have found it to be rather hit-or-miss. I do everything right and sometimes it works when I wouldn’t expect it to, and more often than not, I get the warning even though I have done everything correctly.

I think the main problem comes from the “Stop the train” step. I am not asking to be able to jump cabs on the run. And in fact, I have accidentally hit “1” too many times when the train was moving and been glad I got the warning. (It would be disconcerting to have two AC4400CW’s in a MU with the same cabview and see the ground suddenly moving away from you accidentally).

Anyway this is how it seems to work:

Stop the train. The train must be at 0.00 mph on the F5 display, not 0.01 or 0.02 or 0.0 on the F4 monitor. I think this is the biggest problem. On a hill, with a long train and especially the new coupler values, it can take a long time for the train to settle at 0.00. If MSTS Bin George can do so, I think it would be better to set this at 0 +/- 0.05 or 0 +/- 0.09.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but this is how the other controls seem to work (And I think this means Speed and maybe Locomotive Brake are the ONLY critical controls):

Reverser - Bin Doesn’t mention - Will be set to default. Typically that means neutral. If you have a MU and set Unit 1 to FWD and swap to Unit 2 and back, Unit 1 will be in Neutral.

Throttle - Bin says must be set to zero - However, this does not seem to be true. Seems to behave similarly to above - For example, if the reverser is in neutral, you can ramp up the throttle and swap cabs without problem. Also, if the reverser is engaged, you can be in the dynamic brake range and swap cabs. I tried coupling to a heavy train and setting the throttle to N1 with the train brakes on, but I was always going 0.01 by the time I tried to swap cabs. I think the throttle warning is just to keep you from not having the speed at 0.00 b/c the throttle was not reset. Default is normally idle.

Train Brake - Bin says must be set - However, this does not seem to be true. Also seems to behave similarly to above. Default is “Self Lap 0%” Seems to be the same as above. Suspect BIN only says to set it to increase the chance of the train being at 0.00.

Loco Brake - Bin says must be released. Indeterminate. Default is released. I know that if I set the loco brake and switch to another engine, F5 shows the loco brake released. Also, I didn’t seem like I was dragging the loco brake, but the consist was three AC4400CW’s, so I might not know (like setting the parking brake on a Corvette). Also, if you set the Loco Brake on the front loco, switch to the rear one, and switch back, the first one is no longer set. OTOH, I remember reading a forum thread that said you could not release the loco brake if you set it and left the cab. Perhaps previous versions of Bin worked this way and the latest one does not?

Having said all this, I still am not clear on what the key parameters are. I experimented with the Rogers Pushers activity from MLT with all lead engines swapped out for non-AI engines (and fueled !!!).

When the activity first starts up, I can swap between front and rear of the three engine set pretty much at will, that is how I did these tests. However, often if I drive forward and couple to the long train that I am supposed to push, I will get the “How do you want to switch to other loco” message, even though F5 speed is 0.00, throttle is idle, train brake is set, loco brake is released, etc. I get this message repeatedly and then it will just decide to work.

Upon further reflection, what I think this means is that the train actually must be at 0.000 mph or similar, which would account for why it works perfectly above before the activity starts and has problems after coupling even though F5 shows speed 0.00.

FWIW !!!

Also - there was a previous post on this, but how do you change “Zerro” to “Zero” I found it in “Train Simulator\Translation Help\String\StringTables.txt” and changed it there, but it didn’t fix it in MSTS. (Also, “Don’t remember to release loco brake” should be either “Don’t forget to release loco brake”, or “Remember to release loco brake”, although I never seem to see this one in MSTS. (Found the post, need to edit string.dll in a hex editor.)

[inflammable]

Do all your loco's do it this way? Or just one.

I have one loco, the 25tonner, that won't settle out, and so won't allow me to switch from that cab.

I feel it is in the ENG file somewhere, though, and I haven't studied it much, there's a slim chance for there to be a problem in the shape file itself.

The first few shapes I built, a flatcar, some of them would shimmy after they were in the sim. But it doesn't happen anymore, since I got a decent handle on Gmax.

All I'm saying, is, the issue with the train not being at 0.00 may be something you can fix.

James

[tpilot]

I don't think it's in the .eng file. I have had it work flawlessly and give me errors with the same engine. (Come to think of it, I normally get the most difficult time switching right after the lead engine that I am driving front couples to a consist and becomes the last head-end engine.).

The specific example was the Rogers Pusher's activity for MLT's Rogers Pass route. At the start of the Activity, you are in a consist of three AC4400CW's (and I swapped the rear one for a non-AI, fueled it, and left it flipped). I can jump back and forth between front and rear until the activity starts, but once I couple onto the long sulfur train, I normally can't jump out of the rear engine, even though everything is set properly and F5 shows 0.00, then eventually it will just work.

[OTTODAD]

Hi Marshall !

The loco must be stationary, it's throttle at IDLE and the train brake must have been applied some %, "SELF LAP" or otherwise.

The position of the Reverser is irrelevant.

That works with all the many locos / MU engine cars I have tried switching cabs to so far !

O t t o

[tpilot]

Hi Otto,

That is what the BIN Manual says. That is not what I see happening in MSTS.

As I said, start Roger's Pushers with the mods I mentioned above.

I can put the Reverser in Neutral, run the throttle up to Notch 8, release the train brake, and if the train is not starting to roll, I can hop back and forth between the lead and trailing engine all day.

However, I then drive the trailing engine down and front-couple to the other train, set the throttle to zero, set the train brake to continuous service, ensure the loco brake is released, wait for F5 to show 0.00, press F9 and select another engine, press 1 and I will get "How do you want to come to other engine, you must . . ." ten times before it finally "takes".

Don't know why my system would be different?

Marshall

[OTTODAD]

Hi Marshall !

I can put the Reverser in Neutral, run the throttle up to Notch 8, release the train brake, and if the train is not starting to roll, I can hop back and forth between the lead and trailing engine all day.

Correct ! The train must be Stationary, in other words ZERO SPEED and how you achieve that MSTSBin does not seem to be concerned with, including not applying the train brake, I just realized testing this ! ;-)

However, I then drive the trailing engine down and front-couple to the other train, set the throttle to zero, set the train brake to continuous service, ensure the loco brake is released, wait for F5 to show 0.00, press F9 and select another engine, press 1 and I will get "How do you want to come to other engine, you must . . ." ten times before it finally "takes".

The train you front-coupled on to, has it got a loco at the other end ?

Have not tried that before but will and shall report later !

Take care, O t t o.

[tpilot]

>The train you front-coupled on to, has it got a loco at the
>other end ?

Doesn't seem to matter. There are two activities for Roger's Pass that I modified to utilize BIN's cab switching: Rogers Pushers, and RP Mixed Extra.

In Rogers Pushers, I am front coupling onto a very long train with a MU on the front of it and another helper on the end. In RP Mixed Extra, I am coupling onto a string of about 20-25 cars with no other engine.

However, I realized in an earlier reply that this front coupling situation is when I have the most trouble switching cabs.

[OTTODAD]

O.K., Marshall !

I am going to test that scenario later with an activity, front-coupling that loose rear loco onto a train with a loco at the front, in the middle and the rear to see what response I get.

No point trying to switch to a non-existing cab in a consist which has no loco in it ! ;-)

Are you using my locos and wagons coupler settings and my Default.wag, the latter I had to modify today after what Mervyn (Baldwin) found ?

O t t o

[tpilot]

I am going to test that scenario later with an activity,
front-coupling that loose rear loco onto a train with a loco
at the front, in the middle and the rear to see what response
I get.
No point trying to switch to a non-existing cab in a consist
which has no loco in it ! ;-)

I think I need to clarify:

In Rogers pushers, I start out with a three AC4400CW consist (middle engine is an AI). I can jump between the front and rear engine. I drive the rear engine down and front-couple to a long sulfur train that has an MU on the front and at least one engine besides my three on the rear. The lead engine is not an AI. I am now in the third engine from the rear and it it is difficult to switch to either the front or the tail engine, but will eventually work.

In RP Mixed Extra, I start in an AC4400CW and reverse and rear couple to a flipped SD90. I then switch to the SD90 cab (usually no problem) and drive forward to a siding where I front couple to a consist of about 20-25 cars. I then used to try to switch to the AC4400CW. I can do that, but it took a lot of attempts, so much that I usually end up backing up in the SD90. I then couple the last freight car to another consist of ten or 15 cars. At this point, I can usually easily switch to the AC4400CW. (In fact, I think at some times the train is settling down, so I just press the 1 key as it goes between 0.01 and -0.01 and it works).

So it seems to work except for the "just front-coupled to something" scenario.


>Are you using my locos and wagons coupler settings and my
>Default.wag, the latter I had to modify today after what
>Mervyn (Baldwin) found ?

I am using your previous (not today's) default wagon file and the route-riter BIN recommended coupler settings, and MLT RP locos and wagons. The RR BIN settings are somewhere between yours and TB's non-pro ones, AFAICT.

Off-topic - you've got E-mail!

[OTTODAD]

Did this test, Marshall !

Uncoupled the rear GP-38 from the consist on the left and front-coupled it onto the last "Flipped" SD-402 loco at the end of the consist on the right, which has a GP-38 in the middle and a DASH-9 at the front:

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114397.jpg

Selected the leading DASH-9 loco:

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114398.jpg

and switched to it's front cab with no problems:

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114399.jpg

Here I am driving the train with it:

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114400.jpg

There are obviously variations of what some do in activities and unless a tester of them uses exactly the same rolling stock and does exactly the same things with it, it will be difficult identifying what the problems could be ! ;-)

O t t o

[tpilot]

Otto,

Thanks for testing, but two thoughts:

First, if I wait a long time (30-40 seconds after front coupling), I can switch cabs more easily also, so if you didn't quickly try to switch cabs, perhaps that is why it worked for you.

Second, I am pretty sure I have more coupler slack in my settings, resulting in longer times for the train to settle down.

As I said, though, I have seen the F5 display at 0.00 and been unable to switch, so I still contend BIN is looking for a velocity of less than 0.005 or something smaller and increasing this to less than 0.03 or 0.05 would produce more reliable switching without letting you jump off a moving train.

[tpilot]

For the curious, just saw another post that said the extended F5 display takes velocity out to 5 decimal places.

I think I may try with this and see what my velocity needs to be at before I can switch cabviews.

[tpilot]

Well, that extended F5 display turned out to be VERY useful. I will give you the results and then how I arrived at them.

First as far as I can tell, I think the magic velocity is 0.00200, but not more than 0.00240. Anything above this and you will not be able to switch cabs. This is also WAY too low for the physics involved in MSTS. IMHO, a realistic value would be 0.05000. More on why below.

Most of the test info came from the RP Mixed extra activity. At the start of the activity, you are coupling a MU’d SD90 and AC4400CW onto a consist of 15 mixed freight cars. After you couple up, the train velocity fluctuates between 0.00000 and 0.00400 mph. At this rate, I was able to swap cabs about 1 out of every 4-5 attempts. However, BIN freezes MSTS when you fail to swap cabs and very briefly pauses it while the graphics are changed over, so by making about 20 attempted swaps and watching the numbers I found that the lowest velocity that BIN gave me the “How do you want to swap cabs” warning was 0.00240. The highest number I saw when I successfully swapped cabs was 0.00194. So the cut-off value is somewhere between these values.

Now, in the Roger’s Pushers activity, this is completely unacceptable. I found right after I coupled I could swap cabs, but if I “missed the window” I was virtually unable to. . . Here is the scenario: You are driving a consist of three AC4400CW’s that you are going to back up and couple onto a train consisting of two AC4400CW’s at the front, 90 loaded sulfur cars, and one trailing AC4400CW to push the train up the hill. After coupling to the train and setting the brake, I found that my velocity eventually stabilized between 0.02500 and 0.02700 (reverse). When I say stabilized, I mean that I turned on accelerated time and let a half-hour elapse in the sim and the velocity never changed from this. It also did not seem to matter if I front coupled from the trailing AC4400CW or rear coupled from the lead AC4400CW. And these values are much too high for MSTS BIN to allow me to swap cabs (by about a factor of 10).

Another interesting thing is that the train actually moves backward. When you first couple, the first two player engines have cleared a switch. After half an hour, both of these engines have now backed through the switch.

So now we know where the problems are stemming from!!!

Interesting footnote: If you wait around in Rogers Pushers, after 30 minutes, an AI train comes along and stops right behind you. If you then try to go, the AI train accelerates faster than you can and crashes into you from the rear and you get “Activity Ended - Train Derailed”.

[curtij36]

I know what you mean. After asking on the Bin webite if there is any way to change it so you dont have to come to a complete stop, George replied that you arent a stuntman and cant do this. I couldnt seem to get my point across that it would help if you could change cabs at very slow speeds. I think ill ask again later.

[tpilot]

Looks like someone else (unless you are Bob?) already posted so I tacked a reply on to their post.

UPDATE: George replied back that he can increase this value.

[OTTODAD]

Yes, Bob explained that he just can not stop a steam loco headed freight train stop on a slope with the HUD showing an absolute ZERO speed, Bill also found.

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114491.jpg

So I created a Northern Pacific + 30 US2Freight + Northern Pacific train and after starting it on the GOLD-SPIKE in the Blacktail siding, drove it East towards Shelby, facing steep inclines slowing it down and then stopped, the regulator at 0%, the HUD showing this:

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114492.jpg

and switched to the cab of the loco at the end without problems !

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/Attachments/up1/114493.jpg

Why the HUD of Bob and Bill do not show an absolute ZERO when the train brakes have been applied to all parts of the train and it is motionless, slack not playing any part, wagons not being able to move, is a mystery.

I think George should leave this as it is, because a train is either at a complete standstill, not creeping in any direction, or it is not !

O t t o

[Turbo Bill]

Otto, they are not tallking about the first display, they are talking about the third display. You put a 60 car heavy freight train together and move it then stop, a half hour later the rear cars are still moving even with the brakes. It's not visible to the eye because its moving to the fourth and fifth decimal point. It's the damn springs in those couplers that are jiggling the train around. As TPilot stated a half hour later a fully stopped and brake applied train still had cars moving above the Bin allowed speed for cab changing. This is not going to work on American trains. He needs to loosen his strict guidelines on this one. I used to run trains but if the the MPH is 0.05mph that's good enough to say the train is stopped. If MSTS would have used another method other then a spring to model the train's physics then we could be that exact. I'm going to have to side with the others on this one. The 0.05 speed threshold being asked for is so imperceptable you will never see it on the screen. Hell my screen jiggles ore then that when the kids walk by. We are still honoring Bin's desire and realistic request that you stop the train before switching cabs, but we need a threshold that will allow us to do it with our longer trains. Remember also most people do not use the rigid coupler regions. Our C&NW cars jiggle all the time and if you were to watch the rear of a long American freight train with the cars have no brakes applied they take a while to settle to an absolute zero speed, especially if they are loaded tankers.

[drjoe]

Bill,

See my post in the other thread. This can be improved with lesser stiffness values. Stiffness values can be lowered ( and still achieve what you want ) if smaller r0 values are used.

[tpilot]

Otto, they are not tallking about the first display, they are
>talking about the third display.

Correct, in my example, the train was moving at 0.02500 to 0.02700 after a half-hour SIM time. This will appear as 0.00 in the first F5 display, but is ten times above the BIN allowed value which is something less than 0.00240.

The good news is MSTS Bin George has agreed to raise the value.

And I think Dr. Joe is correct, that the coupler values need to be revised, as it seems (Maybe Turbo Bill could comment) that coupling a three loco MU onto the end of a ninety unit train at 4 mph and setting the train brakes, on relatively flat track would allow the track to back up more than a full locomotive's length past it's original position in a half-hours time.

Two things that would be interesting would be to try the activity with non-modified couplers and see when the train settled out, and to try the activity and let it run for several hours SIM time and see if the train eventually started compressing again and moving forwards.

[OTTODAD]

Could not see that value on my HUD part 3 display, most of the time it being on backgrounds which make it difficult to read all of it !

Don't know which part of the code George reads to get these minute fractional speed read-outs from but would be simpler if he were to read the speed value as displayed in the first part of the HUD ?

Me using "Rigid" couplers on all rolling stock at the moment may also have something to with not having this problem ?

O t t o

[tpilot]

>Could not see that value on my HUD part 3 display, most
>of the time it being on backgrounds which make it difficult to
>read all of it !

<link>http://www.trainsim.com/ts/user_files/114404.jpg</link> (3rd row on the RH side), but can be hard to read - also the last 3 digits are usually fluctuating if you have moved the train at all.

>Don't know which part of the code George reads to get these
>minute fractional speed read-outs from but would be simpler if
>he were to read the speed value as displayed in the first part
>of the HUD ?

Saw your post on the Bin forum. Am no expert on MSTS code, but ASSuME there is some variable called "Velocity" which is displayed to two decimal points on the F5 first page, one decimal point on the F4 monitor (used to be no decimal points) and 5 decimal points on the F5 display.

Problem is he set the variable to allow cab switching to need this to be less than 0.00240, so you can have the train moving at 0.00400 and not be able to switch cabs, even though F5 Screen 1 shows a speed of 0.00. All that needs to happen is for this cutoff ceiling to be raised. I have seen steady-states of 0.02500 to 0.02700, so I recommend 0.05000 (or maybe 0.04999) which should avoid the problem ever happening but would still prevent you switching cabs unless the F4 showed 0.0 MPH.

>Me using "Rigid" couplers on all rolling stock at the moment
>may also have something to with not having this problem ?

Absolutely. I don't fully understand it, but the couplers make the train into a large spring, so when I couple into the large train, it compresses, and then expands, and then should start recompressing, etc.