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Thread: A small challenge to Sniper and Phil

  1. #1
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    Default A small challenge to Sniper and Phil

    Hey guys,

    I run MSTS and TS 2012 ( RW ), and love them. I also want to love Trainz. I have Trainz 2010. I am asking you to convince me.

    What I already like about Trainz:

    1. The things that can be done with AI traffic are amazing. This is the main reason I want to learn to love it.

    2. Working turntables, working industries ( no sim looks entirely accurate while dumping and filling and loading, but that will come later, I think ).

    3. Like the sounds. Engine rev ups, coupler slack sounds, etc.

    What I don't like about Trainz:

    1. Too many routes look like a model railroad, no matter how well the scenery has been done. Too many route creators put the tracks at the edge of a "board". That was OK when I was trying to fit all of an n-scale route on a sheet of 4x8 plywood, but one of the advantages of a computer simulation is that things are easily modelled to the virtual horizon. Even Phil's nice Harbor Master route has this beautiful bridge right on the edge of the route.

    2. I hate the "chase the dependencies" thing. I am relatively computer literate, but sometimes getting the missing things is more trouble than it is worth. Doesn't anybody check what is uploaded to the DLS to make sure that everything needed is on there. I also hate the number of "faulty" assets. Thanks to sniper for the tutorial on fixing some of them ( stuff with mesh problems ).

    3. I think this is related to #1, but too many routes feel like spagetthi. I think that this is also because so many have been based on track plans from model railroad magazines. I don't mind fictional routes, but I would like them to be more prototypical like those of Rich Garber and Andre Ming. I have tried some prototypical routes like Eastern Kentucky, but I have had the chasing assets thing with the ones I have tried.

    So, there is your challenge. Please convince me. I am doing my best to have an open mind about this.
    Last edited by drjoe; 01-01-2012 at 03:57 PM.
    Joe Morris, OVSRails Vice President
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  2. #2

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    Number one reason for Trainz is David Peterson's Car Movement & Traffic Management System 2 is great. Run a Virtual railroad as a railroad. Look it up.

    The reason there are so many bad Trainz routes it is easy to build one.

    Harold

    EDIT: It is really a shame about Trainz and routes. TransDem makes it so easy to get realistic terrain into the game.
    Last edited by hminky; 01-01-2012 at 03:39 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Several problems involved, one of them is the aforementioned ADHD kids uploading track on unpainted baseboards because there's no geo extractor to separate the men from the boys before tracklaying starts. Other item is the baseboard file size, the more baseboards you add the larger the CDP file size is, so even the good route developers tend to try to keep edge baseboards to a minimum. Testing is also problematic, very few creators ever test before uploading in a virgin copy of the game, they usually have stuff they downloaded from all 12 moons of Jupiter installed so they have no idea what they have in the route that's non-default or where they got it from originally.

    You know my standards, try Chicago Metro and some of the sessions for that, see if that one is less like a model railroad.
    Also guaranteed everything is built in or on the DLS, no "google the KUID" involved with Chicago Metro.
    Last edited by sniper297; 01-01-2012 at 06:01 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Hmm - a tough one

    What I don't like about Trainz:

    2. I hate the "chase the dependencies" thing ... .

    Agree. Absolutely. The hunt to the far corners of the Universe for that one missing dependency.

    3. I think this is related to #1, but too many routes feel like spagetthi ... .

    Again, agree - absolutely. And with the two comments made above.

    In fact because of both 2. and 3. I now very seldom download any route from the Download Station. I've been too disappointed too many times.

    1. Too many routes look like a model railroad ... .

    Well, yes, but to me that is becoming part of the appeal.

    In TS12 you will find excellent prototypical routes They are outstandingly good. Except I find them totally boring. Running for hours on the main line is not something I find at all enjoyable. I could never be a real locomotive engineer.

    And, then, of course, there are the routes by Dermmy, which are as good as it can possibly be:

    http://checkrail.com/

    But once again I find them just a little boring.

    What I enjoy most about Trainz is:

    1. Fiddling.
    2. Small scale layouts that provide more intense operations.


    By necessity the second implies that it becomes more like a model railroad, though it should have the illusion of being prototypical with correct signalling, yard layouts, ... .

    Hence my latest offerings (which like all my routes use only built-in or Download Station content) are like DowntownTraction, HarborMaster, Krashnburne and IntenCity. Small in scale but offering excellent operations and playability

    And as for fiddling, I can spend ages experimenting with features like animated industries:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ho9BuSRLus

    and AI commands:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iJz4AmlMU

    and AI single line operations, for example, the "Signal Linker Route" and the "Signal Linker Session" I placed on the Download Station a few days ago which demonstrate how Mexican Standoffs can be easily avoided using the JointedRail "Signal Linker".

    The yellow UP SD40 is the Player locomotive; the SP is AI:



    No Signal Linker:

    Without the Signal Linker as soon as the AI locomotive reaches Trackmark R2 the route is set for the AI to proceed to the next Trackmark, with Junction R2 locked in the diverge setting.

    The Player locomotive cannot enter the other track and a Mexican Standoff results.

    With Signal Linker:

    As soon as the Player locomotive enters the single track section, Signal R1 is set to red. Signal Linker links a red display on Signal R1 with a red display on Signal R2.

    The AI locomotive does not reach the Trackmark, Junction R2 is not locked so the Player train can enter the free track of the loop.

    Easy and simple - but try doing it in MSTS or RailWorks. You can't.
    _____

    So why should you migrate from Trainz 2010 to TS12?

    There is no reason at all if you are happy with 2010. The only benefits are:
    • The built-in routes (if they appeal to you).
    • You can download the TS12 versions of my routes and sessions (they are better then the 2010 versions).
    • Most content creators are moving to the newer version.


    The downside is that there is no compatibility mode, so some older assets will not work or have to be modified to work in TS12. But that's a separate issue.

    Phil
    Last edited by philskene; 01-01-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the responses.

    After reading what has been said, I am going to look at some more routes, and try to get the hang of running some of the sessions.
    Can't give this thing a fair shot without my trying to do a little work to understand things. Just wish there was a list of routes to avoid; you know, ones that have missing dependencies, etc.

    Phil and Jim, after giving things some thought, I think that what I don't like in some routes is when it feels as if I am running a circle of track. I know that even in real life some rail situations can be spaghetti. Some of the tracks in Savannah, GA are crazy, with two railroads ( CSX and NS ) coming into the area and handling coal, intermodal, and various gravel and chemical cargoes. But, I am not too fond of long mainline running, unless there are challenges in managing the grades. What I prefer are shortlines, especially those that require good train handling. I like switching opportunities, but maybe not quite as intense as some of Phil's routes. The things possible with AI traffic are responsible for the main attraction Trainz holds for me. That signal linking thing is quite interesting.

    But from what I see, to get what I want in a route, it looks like I may have to attempt to build my own. I have never attempted this in any of the sims I use, because in the others, I have always been able to find well done ones that were what I wanted.

    Thanks again for the replies.
    Joe Morris, OVSRails Vice President
    OVSRails Engineer #2
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  6. #6
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    Default

    Building your own is always the best way. No disrespect to dermmy, but his routes require compatibility mode and hunt the KUID more often than not.

    Again Joe, try Chicago Metro if you want to get an idea of what's possible - it's a fictional route simply because I always prefer operational fun over prototype accuracy, it does run in circles but not model railroad style, and is based on real world railroads. Plus it's two routes in one, regular and rapid transit.





    You can do switching, fairly long runs, freight and passenger train ops. Scenery is mostly urban, but so is Chicago.

  7. #7
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    Consider two others:

    IndustRail TS2010 - runs in Native Mode.

    RiversideRailroadCo 3a - runs in Compatibility Mode.

    There are also 5 sessions for the first.

    Both use mainly TS2010 assets with just a handful or so of dependencies from the Download Station.

    Phil
    Last edited by philskene; 01-01-2012 at 11:56 PM.

  8. #8
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    Yeah, I should have mentioned - mine works in native mode for TS2010 and in TS12 (which has no compatibility mode) and everything is either built in or on the DLS, no 3rd party website dependencies used at all. Downside is I used a lot of stuff, IIRC the route and sessions combined require something like 300 megs worth of downloading for a n00b who hasn't downloaded anything yet, so a first class ticket or a lot of patience is required.

  9. #9
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    Well, I have an FCT, and I got Chicago. Took care of all missing dependencies ( and, yes, everything was on the DLS ). I have version 2.2, but when I try to run Chicago Metro V2 CTA Session 1, I get an error. It appears to be related to driver rules. I didn't see anything about adding any "extra" driver rules, but I might have missed that.
    sniper1.jpg

    sniper2.jpg

    I get similar errors with Chicago Metro V2 TRANSIT templ8 2.2.
    Last edited by drjoe; 01-02-2012 at 10:47 AM.
    Joe Morris, OVSRails Vice President
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  10. #10
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    Hee-hee, in the first post you said "I want to love Trainz", unfortunately there's a lot about it that's hard to love.

    http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=82653

    Main problem is custom rules don't get added to the KUID table automatically when you create a session that uses those rules, and those blockheads have an automatic knee jerk reaction "USER ERROR!" for any bug I report. Some rules are built into some versions but not others, but regardless if it's built in or downloaded driver commands don't automatically get added to the KUID table so therefore are not on the dependencies list so therefore don't get downloaded automatically which means content mangler will say everything is jake when something critical is missing.


    Schedule Library,<kuid2:192081:12:4>
    Trigger Multiple Signals,<kuid2:116387:26:1>

    Check that you have those two installed, if not download them and see if that fixes it.

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