Unable to locate Bridge Over River Kwai route

[Steveesq]

As I recall, Richard Garcia's routes bring a historical perspective to MSTS. While I understand the disgust and anger about how this real route was built, I don't think that should make it a simulation route that no one uses. In fact, parts of the real line are still in use today. Should those people who use that route for transportation not use it because of how it was built? Should no one use German routes, whether the real ones or their simulations, because some of those same lines were used for the war effort including transporting people to death camps? It seems to me that the route and many others allow us to not forget the history, offering an opportunity for sobering reflection as it is driven. As another example, I drive the WWII, The Fatherland route. Every time I drive it, I am deeply moved as I think about the toll of that war on Germany, Europe and my fellow Americans. I'm not celebrating when I drive it, but remembering this history. Indeed, a big part of my enjoyment of MSTS and Open Rails now comes from being able to run historic trains on historic routes, many of which no longer exist. I see this route as no different and even a valuable contribution to the hobby and to our collective historic memory.

[lateagain]

Well Mr Hansen I suggest your knowledge of History needs some additional study .

Of all the "Axis" enemies of WWII the Japanese had a history of "previous". Google "Nanking Massacre" and if you think there was no difference between any of our enemies of that era? The atrocities committed by the Japanese upon their closest neighbours make those committed against westerners look small fry. Even more amazing is that a committed Nazi tried to protect them from the Japanese. Google "The story of John Rabe".

Also worth considering is the attitude of our enemies to their own history and culpability for misdeeds perpetrated in their name. The fact that even within our enemies there was resistance in most to what was being done in their name at the time. The fact that most acknowledge the wrong doing has healed the wounds ...but equally the lack of acknowledgement for wrong doing is pretty blatant?

These WWII routes are IMO (and you are free to disagree) totally pointless from a Train Simulation point of view. They are quite old, not very well done, include stock used without permission (apparently - see link above) and finally when there are so many brilliant historically recreated routes available why on Earth would anyone want to run them.

North America was almost totally unscathed by WWII .......BUT, whilst you still can, listen to what your Veterans who served in all theatres have to say about it. They didn't have names like PTSD back then but read any recent memoir and the real horror and the effect on peoples lives will live until they are no longer with us. Remember that in Europe and much of Asia that war took place in ordinary peoples back yard!

God help future generations if they ignore the realities of our history

[ragtimer]

Thank you Geoff,could not have said it better myself.Perhaps the Mods will lock this thread,and as I said earlier not allow posts about this route.

[Steveesq]

You've come around to my point at the end, that even through this simulation we can be brought to reflect and come to know history so that these things are known and not forgotten. It's likely that someone reading this thread has already decided to delve into the history here. I just don't understand that because the Japanese brutality was any worse than the German, those routes built by the Japanese should not be allowed but the German routes should. It doesn't matter to an individual subjected to brutality and death in Nanking, Stalingrad, Berlin, London or Honolulu. To the individual, it was a horror no less because of who the perpetrator was.

The routes may not be the most beautifully done and that's an individual choice whether they satisfy.

Finally, my knowledge of the history of WWII is extensive, some of which came from veterans I've known, including my grandfather who served in convoys bringing your country billions of dollars worth of materials, armaments, and food to keep it from falling, and holding the Japanese rifle my uncle took off a dead soldier on a Pacific island, and my friend's father who had the top of his head shot off in Burma as one of Merrill's Marauders. America was far from unscathed, with more than a million young men killed and wounded, and the untold billions in treasure we spent. In fact, if it wasn't for the unscathed America, you'd likely be speaking German today. And we didn't do all that so that censorship would prevail anywhere, even in the Trainsim world and which routes should be made and used or not.

[Steveesq]

Here's the link to the route download
http://www.thuthuboutick.fr/simulation/ ... es/prk.exe

[lateagain]

Enjoy!

In the meantime I suggest you read what I actually said

[NorthernWarrior]

An interesting topic. Of course route builders are free to pursue whatever interests them but I think we can all agree that certain prototypes are taboo particularly the extreme examples mentioned here. Nevertheless something of a grey area as you could argue many railway lines were built on blood or the unscrupulous actions of the original builders against land and property owners. Should a route which is in use as a modern transport link, perhaps offers exceptional scenic interest or interesting operation be excluded because it has a grim legacy?

Neither Kwai nor Auschwitz are routes I would ever dream of making but I have thought about doing something from North Korea or indeed the Burmese Rangoon "outer circle" line which is a rather wacky non rapid transit operation. These could also be regarded as unethical due the regime in these countries as could any of the scenic lines in Iran, but where do you draw a line at what might or might not cause offence?

[ftldave]

This thread reminded me of when Leonid Brezhnev announced the Baikal–Amur Mainline (BAM) railroad project in the Soviet Union, and said that he wanted it to be built with "clean hands", i.e. no forced prisoner labor as had been done on most of the other big USSR railroad and construction projects.

Censorship is a slippery slope, as we can see from the messages here. It happens in other sims, too, like a Falklands Island airport scenery being banned at Microsoft Flight Simulator sites because it showed the flag of Argentina flying nearby, instead of the UK Union Jack. That was pretty flagrant. I notice, too, that German WW2 planes can display the Iron Cross, but not the swastika, etc., because of the direct symbolism to Nazism and Hitler.

Better for individuals to decide, I think, and not site policies dictated by political correctness, sharp feelings of patriotism or anger, or other subjective criteria. Just because you or I don't like it doesn't mean you should prevent others from showing interest or having access, IMHO. It's a simulator, folks, not the real world, and not our real lives.

[lateagain]

Just to be completely undiplomatically blunt. The routes in question are old, poorly done, judging by screenshots, contain stock included without permission and can have little or no interesting activity.

The only censorship is that of common sense? Why seek out the utterly mediocre when the library and community is overflowing with superb and outstanding routes from all over the World?

Personally I see no issue with building any route that has Train Simming potential. By that I mean interesting scenery, traffic, potential for varied activity, available stock to run on it etc.etc.

Why therefore seek out an abysmal route based on an abysmal film? ...and before anyone say's "in your opinion" that is my opinion of both route and film.

The reality is that important as railways were to the War effort in all wars the rail links nearest the front line were usually not fully commissioned, or temporary, were often attacked and even blown up. When there's a Train Simulator capable of simulating a constantly changing environment and effects of military action there just might be some point in creating such routes?

Right now there is a lot of stock that represents the use of Rail to support the war effort in the homelands of warring factions but these of course used the same systems as existing traffic. There's infinite potential for activity creation if folk are really interested.