Ts2021 17.09.20

[MSTS lifer]

Sadly, those of us who are logical about DTGs lack of effort are out numbered by illogical people thus keeping DTG afloat. I can tell you right now straight forward no holds barred comments against this update on RWA have been disappearing. Even objective criticizing is being censored to a degree. Hey, typical right?

It's just a few comments I believe that are gone. Had to with DTG's lack of testing. Both, two different forum members, were super critical. Those two appear to be gone and didn't stay up for long after first being posted. But in general yes, RWA and the Trainz forums do seem to censor critical comments about the product.

[ex-railwayman]

I've not had any bad blood between myself and Bob Artim, the site owner, or, Stuart (Buzz) who has certainly helped me out in the past with TS2020 problems, etc. I've been a forum member for donkey's years. I'm sure it has been said before that they are critical of criticism as they probably don't want DTG to go bust as they'd lose their enjoyment in the sim, which is a fair point, and the vast majority of North American 3rd party creators all go on their forums, so, it is very active, and they have to keep a lid on the overzealous postings from time to time.

Cheerz. Steve.

[lateagain]

I've been following this thread with interest. I never invested in RS (as it started out) and was involved with the Mid East Plus route development whilst all the initial inevitable attention got focused on the NEW Sim.

When ACES studio was closed and MSTS2 was aborted and FSX discontinued I rapidly bought copies of FS9 and the all singing all dancing version (can't remember what they called it) of FSX. THe Flight Sims got my attention and back then the add-on publishers for FSX were developing better aircraft, scenery, environments etc.etc. like a belt fed mortar! I spent a fortune and then real life threw up some issues that put the games on a back burner. When I did get back I revisited Train Sims and resumed my cross pond interest in Railways.

By then RS had developed into RW and with promise of further developments I bought the US version (the Big Boy package) from Steam. I wasn't that smitten. Sure the eye candy was (back then) a good step UP from anything in the earlier sim but the game play seemed dull and there was a big issue with AI back then as I remember? I bought some additional loco's in a Steam sale but even then I was underwhelmed. I began to notice that many payware offerings ASSUMED (and relied upon) you having bought other payware stuff already!?!

It pretty soon occured to me that I was climbing aboard another payware cash cow and could easily find myself splashing out the sums I'd already spent on FSX. I didn't regret the FSX expenditure because I was 98% happy with FSX and most of the add-ons I'd purchased.

So.... crossroads..... I remembered the endless bitching about Trainz developers "Update/NEW" version policy and folk complaining that they were paying for what they already had again. I read about the issues of the software being used for 3rd party add-ons in RW and the suggestion that it was expensive and complex and unlikely to attract as many freeware builders as MSTS had. The final straw was some irritating pop-up on my PC seemed to be linked to my Steam account. Never got to the bottom of it but it disappeared when I uninstalled anything to do with Steam. I came to the decision that I wouldn't spend anymore money on it so I uninstalled RW.

I've always liked the witticism "Minds, like parachutes, work best when they're open" so I've followed the threads as each "new" title is put out by DTG and so far I'm getting deja vu from all those old Trainz threads.

I think Steve has hit a nail on the head above when he suggests that the Fanboys are terrified that DTG will go bust or switch to a more profitable output? The pressure to generate income is pretty much bound to have an effect on the quality of output?

It's obvious in the screenshots of many of the payware routes that have been posted that the same care and attention that's lavished on them by the best "amatuer" route builders is missing?

The one thing that DOES puzzle me is that any future customer for their product will probably find their way on to one or many of the Train Sim forums?

Whilst they ignore the issues raised and attract negative feedback they MUST be damaging future sales? Matt of all people must realise this?

I hope for the sake of those of you who are still "onboard" that the outstanding issues can be fixed .....and with the threat of Covid and it's effect on unemployment I'd be working overtime to fix things up if I were at DTG because sales will drop with incomes?

[ex-railwayman]

The problem might be that they rely on Matt too much, Geoff, you can't fault his enthusiasm which must attract prospective customers, but, he's probably working 7 days a week for 14/15 hours a day. I got Cancer at the age of 54 as I did virtually the same thing for nearly 40 years, he'll kill himself if he doesn't start to delegate jobs and slow down a bit.

Cheerz. Steve.

[lateagain]

The problem might be that they rely on Matt too much, Geoff, you can't fault his enthusiasm which must attract prospective customers, but, he's probably working 7 days a week for 14/15 hours a day. I got Cancer at the age of 54 as I did virtually the same thing for nearly 40 years, he'll kill himself if he doesn't start to delegate jobs and slow down a bit.

Cheerz. Steve.

Yes people "burn out" if they don't take a break or keep on top of their life/work ratios.

As an outside observer I've noticed in the past veiled comments about problems in being able to produce 3rd Party commercial add-ons? That may have just been an isolated comment but I think you need to step back and look at the fact that M$ never produced anything but the original for FSX and yet the massive amount of FS 3rd Party Add-ons has kept it on sale ever since.

It might not produce much revenue now, once the dust settles on MSFS2020? ....but I doubt M$ will restrict or discourage 3rd party add-ons for that?

DTG has offices, staff, overheads etc. 3rd Party Payware developers can work from home? If it's not their only source of income they can indulge in bigger projects like longer better routes, which probably haven't a viable time & effort/return ratio for a company like them? I mention routes because every time they release a new one these forums are full of scorn for how short and uninteresting they are?

I guess we all need to remember that you are not limited to installing any ONE simulator? Many on here seem to have dozens LOL!

[ex-railwayman]

3rd Party Payware developers can work from home? If it's not their only source of income they can indulge in bigger projects like longer better routes, which probably haven't a viable time & effort/return ratio for a company like them? I mention routes because every time they release a new one these forums are full of scorn for how short and uninteresting they are?

It all depends on what gamers want Geoff, I have nothing against small routes at all, it's what is included that really matters, variety is the spice of life, I've been saying it for years. I was playing yesterday on a fantastic freeware route by Trevor Wood called 1960s Waterloo suburban lines. It's a route from Windsor and Eton Riverside to London Waterloo, which as the crow flies is only about 21 miles, but, it's crammed full with yards and sidings and stations, it's set in the 1960s, I can play Steam and Diesel on it plus EMU's, which I found a couple of green reskins for the 4-CIGs and 4-BIGs, etc, so, I have all the appropriate rolling stock for the period, and can run 4/8/12 car commuter trains and hundreds of different freights, it's fantastic little route you can play on it for hours, so, you don't have to have a route of 50/75/100 miles long to get any enjoyment out of it, it's what is on it and the attention to detail that draws the player in and keeps you hooked.

Cheerz. Steve.

[haverfordwest]

Waterloo Suburban is a lovely route and brings back many fond memories of the 1960's - early '70's

[lateagain]

Not quite Freeware......

Waterloo Suburban is a lovely route and brings back many fond memories of the 1960's - early '70's

As I lived on the Hounslow Loop for over 30 years this interested me, having not been involved in RW for years now.

Trevors page for the route is excellent and the screengrabs impressive.

However one of THE major issues with it as a Sim as far as I can see is the interdependence of many offerings on you ALREADY owning a fair amount of Payware? If I decided to "Give it another go..." the list of prerequisite Payware would hardly qualify this as a "Freeware Route" from my perspective? I gave up when the costs got to £65 PLUS and I hadn't even located some of those required add-ons OR included the cost of buying the basic Sim

THat is NOT a criticism of Trevor at all, BUT it's a major issue for TS20XX if you're trying to attract new customers?

[haverfordwest]

Agree Geoff, if you do not own the required payware. Freeware in TS20xx can become very expensive.

Problem is though, to make a decent fist of a freeware route. Payware assets are essential, although some freeware route creators.

Do go over the top with the amount of payware routes, they borrow from.

[metalangel]

Way back in the mists of time, I remember going to UKTS and wanting a modern electrified UK route for MSTS. I decided to get the "Warrington Lines" since it was the closest to home. Oh, the dependencies to get it and any activities to work! I think I was at it all night downloading and installing. Probably longer than I actually spent driving on the route once I managed to get something working.

This misery has been carried over into Railworks/Train Simulator 20XX, except now so much of the stuff is paid. Bought all the Arriva Trains Wales stuff prior to its removal from Steam and saw they included an activity pack... except the Activity pack also wants a bunch of other paid DLC including their notoriously bad in-house class 150 (vs the excellent Armstrong Powerhouse one) to just appear as AI traffic. Blowed if I can figure out how to swap one for the other in the editor and have it run, wasted too much time trying to do that, too. Yes, this is flagged on the Store page (it's the [TaD] activities) but it's still incredibly frustrating.

For that reason I liked Making Tracks and official stuff only for train sims, it was all self-contained and worked.

Don't get me started on the UK and US Asset Packs, which you used to get for free, are now sold separately for more than the cost of the base game, and which you can get for free included in some route DLCs that are cheaper than the separately sold packs!

[NorthernWarrior]

This is one thing that puts me off route building in TS, you pretty much need to flag up at least half a dozen routes plus the old Kuju and UK asset packs to have a reasonable selection of items to work with. My eyesight and manual dexterity no longer lend themselves to making items in 3D Canvas or whatever it's called these days - a station nameboard about the limit of my ability.

[Shortliner]

I gave up on TS when I realized Dovetail was never going to actually work on the core game or fix the problems such as single main track (with passing loop) signaling, no dark territories, no Multiplayer and no improvement of the physics. Just churning out DLCs after DLCs.

[spsimon2110]

Sadly, those of us who are logical about DTGs lack of effort are out numbered by illogical people thus keeping DTG afloat. I can tell you right now straight forward no holds barred comments against this update on RWA have been disappearing. Even objective criticizing is being censored to a degree. Hey, typical right?

Yeah, All that stuff you describe seems to be all that is keeping DTG afloat. Their nasty almost stalkery Fanboys and their rubbish Censorship, it has made me think of jumping ship.

In fact I haven't even launched the thing in weeks. I have been using Open Rails and BVE lately. Even thinking of contributing to Open Rails and Goku's Route editor.

[spsimon2110]

I have been banned 3 times on ukworshipsim, for less than some comments i have made on here.

One forum is a biased mouthpiece, pure and simple.

The other is where the adults hang out.

Very Biased. I dont go on them anymore. I just have to look for news manually. Its better than putting up with those twatters