Circular tracks - loops

[NW 2156]

I'm curious about this whole thing as well.. One of the (regrettably many) projects I have in the works includes one or two Seaboard Airline/Seaboard Coast Line projects that include the Miami area in them. The current Miami Amtrak station sits right in the middle of a loop and I'm HOPING that when I get down to this area, that I won't have to leave parts of it out to keep it from creating a circle.

You should be good to go by the looks of it.

Our project runs into serious troubles because we have multiple circles and they are connected by Wye tracks at 3 points.

Robert

[Orbita]

Yeah, this one's an anomaly. It's an elaborate layout too might I add. I've seen routes with a loop track or two, but nothing like this. And they've worked fine in Open Rails.

[PerryPlatypus]

Hi Eric,

As project coordinator for the Surfliner upgrade, I'd like to ask if you could take a look at our route? And possibly offer some suggestions on how to fix the issues we are having with the loop tracks that make up the Los Angeles Junction Railroad?

I can send a link to the route so you can download it and experiment with our problem spot.

Thank you.

Robert

Hi Robert,

Out of curiosity, what is the "scope" of this Surfliner "upgrade" project? Is it expanding / adding new areas, or does it also involve corrections / improvements to areas that were in the original route? Asking specifically from the perspective of track alignment / siding locations / double track locations.

[eric]

The multiple loops and wyes work in ORTS?

[NW 2156]

Eric, As of this time no. We are having the same issues in both simulators of them simply locking up when certain switches are thrown.

Neither of us really have a firm understanding of what to do about this problem?

We don't want to compromise too much on the track layout. As the LA Junction is a fairly comprehensive switching route in itself.

Perry, We are adding missing track and yards along the route.

We've added the LATC container yard across the river from the LAUPT.

We've added the LA Junction Railroad and the Union Pacific yard at Hobart Ca.

We've also added the Escondido Sub.

There is also going to be additions to scenery. We've already rebuilt several shapes. Mostly bridges in the LA area to make them simple one or two piece shapes for tile loading issues.

Jeff is also doing the ground textures in Mosiac to keep everything consistent.

It's a big project that will require dozens of new warehouse shapes for the LA area. Specifically along the LA Junction RR.

If anyone wants to take a look at the route as it currently stands? I can share the work in progress.

We really want to solve this issue with the circle track so we can keep moving forward with the project.

Thanks.

Robert

[Orbita]

Hmmm. I know there's an LA Junction route here on the File Library with the same exact track layout. Down to the same wyes and loops as what Jeff and Robert have made. Makes me wonder if that route has the same issue.

Update: Just downloaded the route and made a test path that covered all the wyes they were having issues with (essentially one big loop path). Caused the sim (Open Rails) to crash. This is definitely an oddball bug.

And this is what the log burped out:

[R. Steele]

I just had a heck of time placing two reverse points for a balloon track ( route = North Coast Railroad v3.2 ). This is for OR using the trackviewer ... why do both OR and MSTS have problems with loop tracks? There are a few signals on the NCRR ---- none on the balloon track.

[Orbita]

I messed around a little more with the old LA Junction route that's on the file library (lajrr_v1.zip). I made a few other test paths where I was able to run a test consist and switch it around each wye that matched the trouble areas on the Surfliner project.

The sim did not crash once at all. Perhaps maybe there are some paths that aren't quite working with the setup on Surfliner.

[Orbita]

Robert and Jeff,

Here's what I've been able to accomplish so far for you guys testing this.

This was all done in Explore Mode, with paths being made by the path editor in TrackViewer

I haven't found a single switch associated with those wyes that have caused my copy of the sim (Stable Release 1.5.1) to crash. I made paths that start and end just short of the switches where I could easily throw them. I have been able to make a complete turn on those wyes with a test consist (two diesel locomotives, no cars) without any issue.

These are the paths that I used or created to make sure all the switches were working, going off of the original picture Jeff used showing the switches where the sim reportedly hung up:

If you're wondering why they stop short, this was so I would be able to freely flip switches.




The path below didn't seem to register the reverse point, maybe because it was in Explore mode. Either way, it didn't crash the sim.



I used the default Commerce to San Diego path and navigated to the LAJ switch at Commerce:



And finally, I created a path creating a near full loop going through each switch/wye that Jeff identified in the diagram:


Not a single one of these paths caused the sim to crash. Nor did throwing any switch. However, I did find a path on the route called "LAJ Test" (I did not create) to be broken after examining all the paths covering new areas in TrackViewer. I have not fixed the path nor did I touch it. Same goes for both the Downey Street test paths. They were found to be broken.

This is what I've been able to accomplish thus far. If there is a path setup I ought to try creating, please let me know.

[NW 2156]

Kyle,

The issue starts if you drive in a full circle through the right hand side of the wye and up through the yards and back around.

We having the issues in MSTS especially.

The goal of the project is to try and keep compatibility between both sims. Right now MSTS is kicking our butts.

We have actually had to remove parts of the wye tracks and flip the switch at Commerce to be able to make the project work in MSTS.

Robert

[Orbita]

Hi Robert,

This is where things are getting tough. I almost exclusively use Open Rails, and I haven't used MSTS in 10 or so years. I'll keep trying out more test paths.

If it does happen to crash ORTS, it would be worth sending the log file over to the Elvas Tower forums. They have a huge OR support base as far as I'm aware. Perhaps they can assist with this. I have a barely used account on there.

If it is MSTS only, then that's the hard part. It's a 23 year old software program, very primitive by today's standard.

A last resort would be having to do what you did at Commerce, removing tracks just to make it work. You could use dummy tracks to take place of the removed sections. Again, I wouldn't recommend this unless nothing else works.

Since I have a copy of the old LAJ route, might as well try that path combo on that route too if anything happens.

[Orbita]

Okay, a little update. Now I think I'm starting to see what both Jeff and Robert were talking about. Open Rails does lock up after I made this path, going off of what the issue was, understanding what was stated the best I could.

The blue I have marked indicates where I overlapped, creating a loop. Green is start point, Red is end point. Black indicates where the sim hung up for me and crashed. I'm sure they'll hang up anywhere if there is some sort of loop present.

I also tried a second path. This one worked different. The full circle I created, the train stayed in that loop until I flipped the switch (marked in yellow). When I got to the Hobart Tower, like the previous one, it crashed again.

First Path:



Second Path:



I tried a similar loop related path on the old LAJ route as well. Nearly identical to the second test path above and making sure it overlapped into a full circle or loop. Sure enough, it did the same exact thing. Freeze and crash.

It's safe to say that I have a good idea of what may have happened with the issue at present. Open Rails (and MSTS I presume having not used it in 10+ years) do not seem to like any circular paths that overlap each other into a full circle, using the same tracks. The track layout is okay. I've seen very elaborate routes before with insane track work. When creating explore paths or activities, I would strongly advise not creating a path that does a closed circle with any kind of overlapping at all.

I also found this old thread regarding loops if this helps any as well: Closed Loops And Circuits - TrainSim.Com

[eric]

Signals do matter. My trolley loop has three signals before the path itself loops, and just like Ghostbusters, never cross the streams... stop your path a node before it re-encounters it's original path.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[necrails]

Folks
Haven't been here or used the sim in ages. Now that I have some time I saw this topic and would like to know if developing something like the Loop terminals in the Bronx, CNJ, Lehigh valley, etc is feasible. The CNJ is a loop track signal free with some complex trackage. Before I spend any time developing the route would this be a failure waiting to happen?

[dcarleton]

A balloon loop like Sunnyside Yard is okay. The kind that has caused trouble is where the path loops round-and-round like a go-cart track.