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    #31
    Originally posted by R. Steele View Post
    These files are not intended to overwrite or be pasted into an MSTS eng file. They do not follow the format of an MSTS eng file, they are intended to augment or modify ( "or in conjunction" ) with the MSTS engine file through the use of the Common.inc folder and OR include files. By using these files with the Common.inc folder and the OpenRails in your trainset, you can change the MSTS eng file physics to basic OR native physics. Better traction, power, more exhaust adjustability, are only a few among many advantages. Learning how to use the "include" system hard coded into OR means you don't have to change or perform lots of editing on your MSTS eng or wag files.

    Think of the Common.inc folder as just the same as the Common.cab or Common.snd folders, the same path string usage applies.
    It resides in your trainset same as those two folders. The OpenRails folder is dropped into any Locomotive or Wagon trainset folder, same as you would find a cabview or sound folder.

    The easiest thing to do would be to download one of the conversion kits I have uploaded to the library and install it into the appropriate route. (PM me for help, if the instructions fail to work for you ). Also reading Sec. 8.16 in the manual would help.

    Hope this helps. Gerry
    I'ed try the conversion kit's if i had any of the required routes but due to issues beyond my control, I just can't do that right now.
    Would the manual be able to get me up to speed or would i need something that's a bit more hands-on like your conversion kits?

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by stlsf4003 View Post
      I'ed try the conversion kit's if i had any of the required routes but due to issues beyond my control, I just can't do that right now.
      Would the manual be able to get me up to speed or would i need something that's a bit more hands-on like your conversion kits?
      The conversion kit is pretty strait forward.

      Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

      Comment


        #33
        I don't have any of the stock the conversion kits are intended for either, but I've still converted almost almost all my stock to OR physics using them

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by stlsf4003 View Post
          I'ed try the conversion kit's if i had any of the required routes but due to issues beyond my control, I just can't do that right now.
          Would the manual be able to get me up to speed or would i need something that's a bit more hands-on like your conversion kits?
          I understand, well until I get the set of engine files uploaded here's a two zips attached with all the docs for the conversion kits. Reading those along with the manual hopefully will help you get a handle on the concept. Like Travis said, once you get the concept you start doing you own.
          You do bring up a good point about providing some tools for people to make their own conversions, especially since all the ones I've released are for payware.
          So I'll let the cat out of the bag...I've been planning on releasing the spreadsheets I use to make up the ORTS Engine Block and the ORTS Max Tractive Curves...I just have to sit down and do the work of writing up clear, easy to follow, instructions, and how-tos.
          Until then, If I can help, let me know...and if you post with problems or questions, I'm sure others will help with their experiences.
          OR_Conversion_Docs1.zip

          OR_Conversion_Docs2.zip
          Cheers, Gerry
          "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
          It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
          Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
          Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

          Comment


            #35
            Uploaded a set of 176 Open Rails Standard Eng files this morning. Putting together this set I did a considerable amount of research and had help from some very qualified people ( see "thank yous" doc )...so one way to use these files is to mine the "Comment" lines for data. Specifically for items like Locomotive Efficiency, Adhesion Factors, Continuous Tractive Effort and such. The data found at quite a few popular sites is simply there for purposes of relative comparison, accuracy is not paramount.

            The Diesel Shop is very frank about this in the Specification Data section:
            Note: The data found in this section is not from official railroad nor manufacturer sources. There is no guarantee provided nor implied as to the accuracy of the information here, or elsewhere on The Diesel Shop website.
            As I state in the "boilerplate" doc,
            I make no representation that these files are correct in every aspect, they represent my current understanding of Open Rails and its native physics and parameters. Every effort has been made to maintain an internal file consistency and to eliminate errors in these files.
            however, I did make a considerable effort to locate the best data possible, and where I couldn't find good data I stated in the comment lines that I made a "reasoned best guess-estimation".

            All that said, if anyone has good documented data that will help improve the accuracy of these files, please let me know.

            One last thing, eventually I'm going to release the spreadsheets I use to make up the OR Engine blocks and the OR Max Tractive Curve Sets. The task for me is to create a clear, concise, and easy to use set of instructions for people to use.

            Any questions or comments with the sets, please do not hesitate to ask, either PM me or use email found in docs.
            Cheers, Gerry
            "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
            It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
            Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
            Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

            Comment


              #36
              Thanks Gerry! I have a whole fleet of F's and Geeps that will be going in the shop tonight!

              Uncle E
              Whatever's cold in my fridge is the Official Beer of ​sigpicOpen Rails.

              Comment


                #37
                These look really good. I don't have any of the routes you've done conversions for, but I downloaded one conversion kit anyway to look at the docs (nice touch with the .odt's, btw!) and I think I've got a handle on it, but some of the finer points escape me.

                You can put the .inc files in the individual loco folders (in the loco's OpenRails subfolder, actually) and/or in the Common.inc folder in the trainset folder, yes? The manual mentions using includes in the individual loco folders, but doesn't mention how the Common.inc folder works. These .inc files in the Common.inc folder are supposed to apply to all locos of a given type, yes? So all my SD40-2s, for example, will perform the same?

                If my above assumptions are correct, then I'm left with 2 questions:
                1. In what order do the include files apply? If there's an identical data block in the individual and common include files, which overwrites which?
                2. How does OR know which Common.inc files to apply to which equipment? Is it just a simple string match that looks for "SD40-2", say, in all the equipment it loads?

                Thanks

                Comment


                  #38
                  Ah, I see how the loco .incs point to the common .incs now. Never mind.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by tooltroll View Post
                    These look really good. I don't have any of the routes you've done conversions for, but I downloaded one conversion kit anyway to look at the docs (nice touch with the .odt's, btw!) and I think I've got a handle on it, but some of the finer points escape me.

                    You can put the .inc files in the individual loco folders (in the loco's OpenRails subfolder, actually) and/or in the Common.inc folder in the trainset folder, yes? The manual mentions using includes in the individual loco folders, but doesn't mention how the Common.inc folder works. These .inc files in the Common.inc folder are supposed to apply to all locos of a given type, yes? So all my SD40-2s, for example, will perform the same?

                    If my above assumptions are correct, then I'm left with 2 questions:
                    1. In what order do the include files apply? If there's an identical data block in the individual and common include files, which overwrites which?
                    2. How does OR know which Common.inc files to apply to which equipment? Is it just a simple string match that looks for "SD40-2", say, in all the equipment it loads?

                    Thanks
                    ...and
                    Ah, I see how the loco .incs point to the common .incs now. Never mind.
                    oh man, you're not getting off that easy, I just spent quite a few minutes writing an answer the previous post...so here goes.

                    You have quite a bit to unpack here, so let me start with some 1st principles, and see if that helps clear things up.
                    1. OpenRails folder: Consider this folder the same as the Sound folder in TRAINSET wagon folders or CabView & Sound folders found in TRAINSET locomotives folders. The OpenRails folder contains data, parameters and values suitable for use in Open Rails. By using the OpenRails folder you can modify or augment the MSTS locomotive or wagon in the parent folder, found one level above.

                    2. Common.inc folder: Consider the Common.inc folder the same as the Common.Snd folder or the Common.Cab folder. The Common.inc folder is placed into the main TRAINSET folder and sits beside the other two common folders (.cab and .snd ). The same path string protocols/rules that are used with the .cab and .snd folders also apply and work with the Common.inc folder.

                    The Common,inc folder contains all the ".inc" files which are common to the whole "fleet". ( all equipment in the TRAINSET folder considered as the "fleet" ). File type ".inc" is simply a txt file that is hard coded into OR. The Common.inc can, by design, can any number of subfolders according to how the user wishes to configure the system.

                    The ".inc" file type is used in path strings, for example:

                    Code:
                    include ( "..\\UP_SD40-2_3565.eng" )
                    Wagon (
                    	Mass ( 176900 )
                    	include ( "..\\..\\Common.inc\\Locomotives\\Couplers\\Std_TypeF_TIGHT_Coupler.inc" )
                    	include ( "..\\..\\Common.inc\\Locomotives\\Brakes\\Std_Loco_Brakes.inc" )
                    	ORTSAdhesion ( ORTSCurtius_Kniffler ( 7.5 44 0.161 0.7 ) )
                    	ORTSAdhesion ( ORTSSlipWarningThreshold ( 62 ) )
                    	ORTSBearingType ( Low )
                    	ORTSDavis_A ( 1741.47 )
                    	ORTSDavis_B ( 38.8066 )
                    	ORTSDavis_C ( 7.820136 )
                    	Comment( == Assumptions -Locomotive diesel/electric - speed - 65mph (105km/h), Low Torque Bearing, 6 axles, frontal area - 13.6m2, WagonWeight - 176.9 ton (metric), Drag 1.0 == )
                    )
                    Engine (
                    	Effects
                    	(
                    		DieselSpecialEffects
                    		(
                    		Exhaust1
                    			(
                                    0 4.57 1.75
                    				0 1 0
                    				0.17
                    			)
                    		)
                    	)
                    	include ( "..\\..\\Common.inc\\Locomotives\\Std_Eng_SD40-2.inc" )
                    )
                    Practically, these strings are telling OR to include these .inc files for the "UP_SD40-2_3565.eng" which is the exact name of the locomotive residing in the parent folder one level up.

                    The first include line in the above ENG.inc file is telling OR to include all the data found here ( in the Open Rails folder) with other relevant data in the default MSTS file ( UP_SD40-2_3565.eng ) found one level up. OR uses the data found in the OpenRails folder AND data found by use of path strings in the Common.inc ( and subfolders ) for the data found in the MSTS eng file. OR is hardcoded to give preference to the data found in the OpenRails folder.
                    By combining the data obtained from the OpenRails file ( and through the use of path strings from the Common.inc folder ) with data found in the MSTS file OR constructs a complete engine file for use in the simulator.

                    Practically speaking, OR will substitute anything found in the OpenRails folder for whatever is found in the parent folder (locomotives or wagons ) one level up.
                    Sound path strings, different cab views, etc.

                    2. OpenRails folder: Consider this folder the same as the Sound folder in TRAINSET wagon folders or CabView & Sound folders found in TRAINSET locomotives folders. As stated above the OpenRails folder contains data, parameters and values suitable for use in Open Rails. By using the OpenRails folder you can modify or augment the MSTS locomotive or wagon in the parent folder.

                    ...end of 1st principles...

                    You can put the .inc files in the individual loco folders (in the loco's OpenRails subfolder, actually) and/or in the Common.inc folder in the trainset folder, yes?
                    Sure, you can design it anyway you want, but, why would you want to do this? Some designs have built in "MORE WORK"...this seems like one of those. These conversion kits were designed to provide the user with any easy install and ease of use.

                    1. In what order do the include files apply? If there's an identical data block in the individual and common include files, which overwrites which?
                    I can't answer either question, I have read that OR gives preference to the last parameter parsed, in the case of two or more identical parameters, blocks or lines of data. I don't know if that is true. You could find out by doing some tests.


                    These .inc files in the Common.inc folder are supposed to apply to all locos of a given type, yes? So all my SD40-2s, for example, will perform the same?
                    That's the idea. The fleet will have a standard set of couplers, brakes, engines, etc.
                    Changing a coupler for the whole fleet becomes a simple chore, because many files are using only one file found in the Common.inc folder ( path strings )

                    Now a user can have many coupler files, brake files, dynamic brake files, engine files, etc. Depending upon the simulation needs and skills of the end user.

                    You can have as many SD40-2 files as you want, they gotta have different names. I have different files for some engines, different weights.

                    Here's the deal, Mass of engine determines the Starting Tractive Effort, the traction motors determine the Continuous Tractive Effort, RPM's and such are determined by the prime mover,
                    So unless your SD40-2's have different traction motors, weighs considerable more or less than the mass given in the std_eng file, has a different prime mover, there really is not a need to have a different file. Now railroads make all sorts of modification to locomotives, too many sometimes, to keep count of. I have read about the countless GP7's and 9's rebuilds that populate the world.

                    If you want different behaviors for certain SD40-2s you can create a new Std_eng file using the old file as a template...do whatever you want. That file can be in the Common.inc folder or can be pasted into the eng file in the OpenRails folder in place of the include line in engine section of the ENG file.

                    These files are simply intended as a starting point for those wanting to understand and use basic OR native physics, nothing more. There are certainly other methods of design which work just a well with Open Rails.

                    For an outstanding GP7 please see Tiger Trains, NAVS SOO Line GP-7 by Erick Cantu. You'll see a totally ( in some ways ) different scheme than I'm using. This is a fine example of some of the work that is being made that bears no relationship to how MSTS presented the files and data point.

                    lastly,
                    How does OR know which Common.inc files to apply to which equipment? Is it just a simple string match that looks for "SD40-2", say, in all the equipment it loads?
                    Same way MSTS and ORTS keep track of cabview, sound files, correct path strings, and name of file. I really don't understand any other way of answer, perhaps I misundertand your question...perhaps someone else is not as confused as I.
                    Last edited by R. Steele; 04-30-2019, 08:35 PM.
                    Cheers, Gerry
                    "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
                    It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
                    Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
                    Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by tooltroll View Post
                      You can put the .inc files in the individual loco folders (in the loco's OpenRails subfolder, actually) and/or in the Common.inc folder in the trainset folder, yes? The manual mentions using includes in the individual loco folders, but doesn't mention how the Common.inc folder works. These .inc files in the Common.inc folder are supposed to apply to all locos of a given type, yes? So all my SD40-2s, for example, will perform the same?
                      Thanks
                      The \common.inc directory tree is my idea. It took a while to get to a good name for it and it's sub-folders.

                      The purpose is to have a .wag/,eng neutral location for cert6ain include files. What should be avoided is leaving include files in a .wag or .eng directory that might get moved or deleted (for whatever reason). Were that to happen then the path to those include files would be broken.

                      The logic I follow is to have one branch of \common.inc dedicated to fleet-wide include files. Things like standard couplers and brakes, monitoring devices and the like... things that would be used by most .eng or .wag files that had that equipment. Think of them as defaults.

                      The other branch I use under \common.inc is \models. Like \fleet the files that will go into this branch are widely used but instead of fleet-wide they are model-wide files. For example, the Pullman PS-1 boxcar... owned by many, many railroads. Dropping the include files for that model here means you can move or delete and individual folder(s) that hold a PS-1 model w/o breaking any of the others.

                      Like the names above, it took a while to figure out a good tree structure. What I do now is this:
                      \models\name of the person who made that model\name of the model\all the include files.

                      As an example, I have numerous models made by Tim Muir. For those I have
                      \common.inc\models\Tim Muir\USRA SS Boxcars
                      .................................................. ......\USRA DS Boxcars
                      .................................................. .......\G-50-11 (gondolas used by the SP, PE, and T&NO
                      and so on.

                      All of hte above were owned by multiple railroads and so there are several folders in trains that point to them. OTOH, Tim's very fine SFRD_RR-40 reefer models were only owned by the Santa Fe. I moved all of those models into one folder (fiddling with texture names and assignments inside the .s file, and left all their include files there. Because no other folder will use those include files there is no need to put them over in the \common.inc tree.

                      Make sense now?
                      Dave Nelson
                      sigpic
                      Seldom visiting, posting less often that that.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by R. Steele View Post
                        ...and

                        oh man, you're not getting off that easy, I just spent quite a few minutes writing an answer the previous post...so here goes.
                        LOL. Sock it to me. The more info, the better.

                        Originally posted by R. Steele View Post
                        I can't answer either question, I have read that OR gives preference to the last parameter parsed, in the case of two or more identical parameters, blocks or lines of data. I don't know if that is true. You could find out by doing some tests.
                        Yes, I can see what's happening. The .inc in the loco's openrails folder points to the .inc in the common folder, so the common .incs load last, and would overwrite any previous data. Awesome.

                        Originally posted by R. Steele View Post
                        Same way MSTS and ORTS keep track of cabview, sound files, correct path strings, and name of file. I really don't understand any other way of answer, perhaps I misundertand your question...perhaps someone else is not as confused as I.
                        Yep, I get that now. I guess I was thinking that OR might automagically know where to look when a loco of a given model was loaded.

                        Originally posted by muskokaandtahoe View Post
                        The \common.inc directory tree is my idea. It took a while to get to a good name for it and it's sub-folders. . . . Make sense now?
                        Clear as an unmuddied lake, sir. As an azure sky of deepest summer.

                        This is very clever. Kudos to you two for coming up with it. I've already managed to apply it to one of my old downloaded CN SD40-2s by the simple expedient of dropping an appropriate SD40-2 .inc from your expansion into its OR subfolder, renaming and tweaking it to another filename. The difference in performance is remarkable. Now to jimmy up .inc files for the rest of my fleet.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by tooltroll View Post
                          ...
                          This is very clever. Kudos to you two for coming up with it.
                          Not you two...all Dave ( I may have contributed by naming the folder "locomotives" Wheew that took a lot of brainpower.)
                          I will take credit for my Std_Eng files... but I could not have created them had I not kept reading the threads, the manual, resources found in libraries and on the web and had people helping me along the way. Dave most certainly is one of those.

                          I believe Wayne Campbell -- who first proposed the fundamental idea for an open source train simulator and had started coding it -- was responsible for the idea of include files and OpenRails folder...don't quote me on this ancient OR history.

                          The contributions of many people have brought the simulator to this point...people should keep contributing, it is a user built simulator, and a very nice one to boot.

                          Originally posted by tooltroll View Post
                          I've already managed to apply it to one of my old downloaded CN SD40-2s by the simple expedient of dropping an appropriate SD40-2 .inc from your expansion into its OR subfolder, renaming and tweaking it to another filename. The difference in performance is remarkable. Now to jimmy up .inc files for the rest of my fleet.
                          Excellent, that's exactly why I made up the files so people could apply them in a manner that suited them.

                          One important thing: however anyone chooses to use these files, please check the OR log to see if any warnings are produced. The log will show you if a mistake has been made, wrong path strings, bad locations, anything...USE THE LOG and POST THE LOG when you have a problem.
                          Last edited by R. Steele; 05-01-2019, 01:01 AM.
                          Cheers, Gerry
                          "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
                          It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
                          Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
                          Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

                          Comment


                            #43
                            These are nice! I've started on them already. No errors yet, but I wish I knew how the Davis numbers worked. I didn't see much in the manual on them. I guess I don't know it four vs. six axle makes much difference

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Explanations of the formulas are over at " Coals to Newcastle " . Wealth of info there for anything on tracks .

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by ebnertra000 View Post
                                These are nice! I've started on them already. No errors yet, but I wish I knew how the Davis numbers worked. I didn't see much in the manual on them. I guess I don't know it four vs. six axle makes much difference
                                Besides Coals to New Castle ( agree --- great source of information ) try these threads at Elvas Tower
                                ORTSDavis numbers:
                                Hi Folks, Working on optimizing some of my projects for OR... Question - I found an example where we include "Davis Coefficients" with the ...


                                Hi Folks, Working on optimizing some of my projects for OR... Question - I found an example where we include "Davis Coefficients" with the ...


                                I never realized that my overall train performance was lacking due to missing entries and current entries that need to be modified. In my case, the ...
                                Cheers, Gerry
                                "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
                                It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
                                Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
                                Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

                                Comment

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