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    Scenic Sub?

    What is the difference between the SLI BNSF Scenic Sub and the Scenic Sub used as a starter route for Open Rails? Is it the same route or is it two different routes? I'm asking because there are activities in the file library I would like to get, but I don't want to get them if they're for an old payware route that's not available anymore.

    #2
    Scenic starter is Scenic 2 without the Scenic 2 rolling stock. Your biggest hurdle in any Scenic 2 activities from the library is going to be finding replacement rolling stock. On the plus side, Seligman 2 for ORTS and Mullan does offer some BNSF replacement stock choices, although nothing on the GP38-2/SD40-2 level. Mullan contributes replacement (better) Boeing cars, and Seligman does provide some GP40Ms as lower hp alternates.

    The way the starter route has flailed back and forth between MSTS grade Gevos and OR-grade Dash9s, repackaged so many times, and has gone back and forth between DDS and ACE textures, make you want to just throw up your hands and say why bother.

    The MSTS grade add-on equipment pack for Scenic 2 still broke loco shape files out into 2 pieces, whereas ORTS Seligman and after had OR grade stock built as one piece shapes.​
    My Open Rails videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClc...1kBPO2A/videos

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      #3
      This gets interesting because there are multiple versions of the Scenic Sub route and multiple versions of the Starter Route. The short answer is that the Starter Route has always been a copy of the Scenic Sub route so it is compatible with activities for the Scenic Sub, you just have to figure out what to do about any missing engines and wagons. The actual answer is that which activities you can use depends on which version of the Scenic Sub you have, and that depends on when you downloaded the Starter Route.

      If your route does not have the ballast built into the terrain texture that means you have the original Scenic Sub, which dates back to 2006-2011. Ages ago, this shipped as payware with locomotives and rolling stock with Fred Flintstone wheels, the only unique bit of rolling stock not featured in later versions being two road numbers of B40-8. This version of the route later became the "first version" of the Starter Route in late 2018-2020, which dropped all the old rolling stock models and only included some GEVO road numbers, container cars, and grain hoppers from the 2.0 version of the route. And it seems that recent versions of the Starter Route, probably 2023-present, also use this route but come with Dash 9s instead of GEVOS. This route, the old 2006 version, is the current Starter Route. If you want activities for this version of the starter route, you'll have to look for particularly old files (before 2011) or files that explicitly state they were made for the starter route before 2020/after 2023.

      Then there's the 2.0 version of the Scenic Sub which is originally from 2011-2020, you can tell you have this one if the ballast is included in the terrain texture. This one originally shipped with the same locomotives as the old version, without the B40-8, but included the "precision" line of freight cars which have nice, rounded wheels. There's also a sort of "version 2.5" in the form of the locomotive upgrade pack offered starting 2012, which replaced the Fred Flintstone locomotives with much higher poly ones originally meant for MSTS 2. The ES44AC for the "first version" of the starter route was taken from this loco pack. Scenic Sub 2.0 as payware went off sale at some point in late 2020, and the 2.0 route became the new "second version" of the Starter Route, which included some Dash 9 road numbers, container cars, and grain hoppers from the Mullan Pass route.
      For unknown reasons, the starter route has since (can't pin down when) been downgraded and once again uses the 2006 Scenic route. The image of the route on the downloads page misleadingly shows a screenshot of Scenic 2.0 with the updated terrain textures, which seems to suggest it's unintended that the download now leads to the 2006 version of the route. Most of the activities out there will likely be for this 2.0 version of scenic, which has become abandonware no longer available in any form.​

      If you are lucky, you may have downloaded the Starter Route in 2020 when it was using the 2.0 route, in which case you can download the starter route again and then you have both the 2006 and 2011 versions of Scenic Sub.
      Last edited by pschlik; 04-17-2024, 01:55 PM.
      ​​​
      ​Contributing to ORTS on GitHub as SteelFill

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        #4
        Originally posted by pschlik View Post
        For unknown reasons, the starter route has since been downgraded and once again uses the "first version" based on the 2006 Scenic route
        My guess: Probably TS (nee SLI ) wanted to keep the goodwill of their paying customers by not offering the best grade of the BNSF Scenic for free.


        Originally posted by pschlik View Post
        this 2.0 version of scenic, which has become abandonware no longer available in any form.​

        A software product, especially a video game, whose copyright is no longer defended or which is no longer marketed even by the company who made it​
        I think TrainSimulations would assert copyright ownership if someone tried to market BNSF Scenic Sub Ver2.0 --- abandonware is inaccurate.

        Originally posted by pschlik View Post
        This gets interesting because there are multiple versions of the Scenic Sub route and multiple versions of the Starter Route.
        To say the least -- it's a tangled mess --- but it is free and a thank you to TS ( SLI ) for offering it as an Open Rails starter route.
        Last edited by R. Steele; 04-17-2024, 10:22 AM.
        Cheers, Gerry
        "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
        It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
        Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
        Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

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          #5
          In your definition of abandonware, note the "-OR- (not "and", "or") no longer marketed," that is exactly what applies here and unfortunately to many other perfectly good pieces of content. (Most people's definition of abandonware doesn't specifically require copyright to be non-enforced. Some of the most egregious cases of what would popularly be considered 'abandonware' are specifically cases where you can no longer purchase the product but where copyright is still being enforced aggressively, such as Nintendo's "approach" to emulation.)

          But that's just semantics, the real problem is that there's perfectly decent stuff that you can't buy anymore. If someone at TS wants to argue Scenic Sub 2.0, the Amtrak Empire Builder, and the locomotive upgrade pack are not abandonware, prove me wrong by putting them up for sale again 😉
          ​​​
          ​Contributing to ORTS on GitHub as SteelFill

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            #6
            I have the middle version of the starter route, with the Mullan Dash9s and spine cars, and with DDS textures. It was not an error-free copy, as some of the scenery shapes were not converted to calling up DDS textures, but a texture over-ride feature of Open Rails sort of hid that flaw when the option was check-boxed. If that feature was not active, some trees and landscape items displayed as a texture-less gray block. I fixed that by uncompressing all the scenery shapes, examining them, and changing any calls for ACE files to DDS. Roughly 1/4 of them needed correction.

            I believe user Shawmut also added a US3 conversion kit which I downloaded and installed.

            So I have the route ready to run, but am just waiting on more OR-grade low hp rolling stock to replace what was taken away. And I have given up on adding any activities from the library for now until the stock scene is better.

            A Mullan consist substituting.

            My Open Rails videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClc...1kBPO2A/videos

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              #7
              Interesting posts. My copy has loco 4410 heading the "Eastbound Grain Empty" activity. Not sure which version that is though.
              Regards,

              Nick

              ( boffin0_reprised on TikTok )




              Cyberpower Desktop with AMD Ryzen 5 CPU. 16GB RAM. ATI AMD Radeon RX6700 12GB graphics. Windows 11 Home 64bit. RailDriver. Partridge in a pear tree....​

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                #8
                Good chance that's the 'newer' Starter Route then. Do you have grass on the ground under the tracks or is there a path of gravel?
                ​​​
                ​Contributing to ORTS on GitHub as SteelFill

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                  #9
                  I believe I have the version with the Mullan Pass ES4400's.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by pschlik View Post
                    In your definition of abandonware, note the "-OR- (not "and", "or") no longer marketed,
                    not mine, copied from Wikipedia --- just to be accurate. I'm nitpicking here...apparently the season is upon us.

                    Originally posted by pschlik View Post
                    If someone at TS wants to argue Scenic Sub 2.0, the Amtrak Empire Builder, and the locomotive upgrade pack are not abandonware, prove me wrong by putting them up for sale again 😉
                    Oh Phillip --- puhleeze, nobody has anything to prove here.

                    If you truly believe it is abandonware, offer the route yourself. I don't think you will, because the "abandonware" is just an opinion, not a fact.
                    Last edited by R. Steele; 04-17-2024, 01:10 PM.
                    Cheers, Gerry
                    "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa
                    It's my railroad and I'll do what I want! Historically accurate attitude of US Railroad Barons.
                    Forever, ridin' drag in railroad knowledge.
                    Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by pschlik View Post
                      Good chance that's the 'newer' Starter Route then. Do you have grass on the ground under the tracks or is there a path of gravel?
                      I have gravel ballast under the tracks.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Regards,

                      Nick

                      ( boffin0_reprised on TikTok )




                      Cyberpower Desktop with AMD Ryzen 5 CPU. 16GB RAM. ATI AMD Radeon RX6700 12GB graphics. Windows 11 Home 64bit. RailDriver. Partridge in a pear tree....​

                      Comment


                        #12
                        No you don't; that gravel is part of the track itself, below that it's just grass. Which means this is the old route...that is interesting, I never knew there was a version of the starter route which had the old terrain but included the Dash 9. I'll add that to my notes.
                        ​​​
                        ​Contributing to ORTS on GitHub as SteelFill

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by pschlik View Post
                          No you don't; that gravel is part of the track itself, below that it's just grass. Which means this is the old route...that is interesting, I never knew there was a version of the starter route which had the old terrain but included the Dash 9. I'll add that to my notes.

                          Wow my claim to fame then! I believe I downloaded the route sometime last year.
                          Regards,

                          Nick

                          ( boffin0_reprised on TikTok )




                          Cyberpower Desktop with AMD Ryzen 5 CPU. 16GB RAM. ATI AMD Radeon RX6700 12GB graphics. Windows 11 Home 64bit. RailDriver. Partridge in a pear tree....​

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Looks like I'll have to re-download it myself and take a look-I haven't downloaded a copy for a few years since I thought nothing had changed. And also grab some screenshots of the track/ground to make it more obvious what I meant by the gravel texture so everyone knows what to look for.
                            ​​​
                            ​Contributing to ORTS on GitHub as SteelFill

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                              #15
                              The starter route offering has changed a couple times.... I think I have three different variations over time.
                              If you like what you see here at Trainsim.com, be it the discussions and knowledge in the forums, items saved in our library or the ongoing development of our TSRE Fork, I hope you'll consider a paid membership to help support keeping the site operating.... Thanks!

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