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    Attitude Check, phase 2

    Ghost town in here, hey? Well, this is the opposite of the previous thread, gripes and groans primarily focused on "Fix that blasted unholy_________" whatever your pet peeve is.

    Main thing to bear in mind here is that you are NOT the center of the universe, your opinion is no more and no less important than anyone else's. My experience has been that an only child takes longer to outgrow that idea than people who grew up with brothers and sisters, but some people never outgrow it.

    That's what starts a lot of these silly flamewarz, the childish thinking that the other guy's gripe is pointless because it's something you don't care about. I DON'T care about working headlights or windshield wipers, and while I may poke fun at those who do, I respect their right to talk about it however often they feel the need to vent.

    Got someone who irritates you, then put him on your ignore list, after that you won't even see any of his posts. I really don't get this, some people don't like a guy and yet just can't stay away from him, can't even restrain themselves from reading threads that he starts. Maybe it's some kind of masochistic need to be irritated, I got a fix for that too - turn off your computer, turn on your TV and watch American Idol. That show is guaranteed to irritate anyone who's not a 10 year old girl.

    About 30 years ago my brothers and I invested in my Dad's model railroad, converted from S gauge to HO scale and built a huge layout. Roger liked switching in yards, assembling and breaking up trains. I liked running peddler freights, short haul stopping to switch cars around at industries and small towns. John liked big long heavy freight trains, Rob and Randy were happy with just running passenger trains around in circles. John and I set up track, signals, and control blocks to make it possible for all this to happen at once. What was Dad doing all this time? Hee-hee, he rarely ran trains at all except for testing, in fact I buit him his own test loop over by his workbench. Dad's pet peeve was the unrealistic jackrabbit starts, so he spent most of his time with jeweler's files and dental picks installing Sagami can motors, adding lead weights, Kadee couplers and RP25 wheelsets, quartering drivers and adjusting microscopic bushing clearances until he had an engine that would creep forward at half an inch per minute, and John could back a 50 car freight thru a maze of #4 slip switches without derailing. With the Keller command & control system all six of us could run two trains each simultaneously, altho that was pushing it cuz when you concentrated on one train your other one would collide with someone else's secondary train. (Twelve trains running on two scale miles of doubletracked main also got kinda crowded, nice thing about virtual trains is there's no limit to the size of your "basement".)

    We all got along in spite of our different tastes tho, dunno why all youse guys can't. Dad was like the 3D cad modelmakers not really interested in operations, John, Roger and I were the fanatics who all benefited from his building and tweaking, Rob and Randy were like the average trainsimmer, couldn't care less about Kadees and RP25s or how carefully John and I adjusted the trackwork and block signals since they never uncoupled anything or even backed up, just ran the trains around at top speed.

    Anyway, here's my pet peeve, AI traffic. Yup, Johnny one-note playing the same old song, that's me, deal with it.

    Back in the fall of 2007 my experience with railsim went like this;

    Got a new trainsim game here called Kuju Rail Simulator, it's not finished yet but if you buy it, we'll add US content and developer tools so you can create AI traffic later.
    Hmm, looks good so far!
    Okay, here's the developer tools.
    Hey, scenario editor is all screwy, what's the deal?
    Okay, here's the US version, but it costs extra.
    Batteries not included, some assembly required, accessories sold separately, that figures. And the dev tools don't work with the US version.
    Okay, here's patch mark 1, and new dev tools compatible with both versions.
    Uh, that made it worse, instead of fixing the AI traffic you just locked all the switches including the manual ones!
    Okay, here's patch mark 2, the dynamic brakes on US locos work now.
    Uh, yeah, but there's no sound from the dynamic brakes, and when are you gonna fix the AI traffic?
    Announcing a new game: RAILWORKS! In addition to the features available in Rail Simulator, RailWorks includes but is not limited to:
    * The Dispatcher has been improved with added functionality including error reporting for problematic scenarios and further enhanced AI traffic handling.

    Um, I'm not buying it this time, especially since the reports I'm getting back show the AI traffic is still nothing more than animated background scenery rather than actual "traffic". It didn't need to be "further enhanced", it needs a complete overhaul.

    That's my problem, I'm tired of kludging around Klumsy Kuju Koding for the last eight years. MSTS was a royal pain, RS is the same old sloppy programming requiring ridiculously complex workarounds to make it do the simplest things. Someone commented in another thread about the ability to assign a path to an AI train being the most basic facet of a train simulator, instead we got this idiotic idea of setting a destination and using zillions of markers to try to at least partially control the path. Setting up AI traffic in MSTS was actually a lot easier, simpler, and faster in spite of all the bugs, the biggest shock I got with RS was they actually made it worse instead of better. Near as I can tell RW hasn't fixed it, and to all appearances they don't intend to.

    If that's the case I wish they would just come out and SAY that, being originally from the West Side of Chicago I don't even need to have it sugarcoated - "Sorry about yo' luck, white boy, that's all they is and they ain't no mo" is a perfectly acceptable answer to me. If they would just SAY the scenario tools and AI traffic are acceptable to them the way they are and they have no intention of making actual operations possible, then I'll skip ReWorks, buy Trainz 2009, go away and stop bothering everyone about it.

    So now it's your turn, post your pet peeve and "I ain't buying RetardWorks until they fix that!" If you must read what others think, unload your flamethrower at the door before responding, just because he has a silly gripe don't mean it's not important to HIM.
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    #2
    But if they said that, they could not sell the "game" to 10 years old who will quickly become bored and dump RW. It is all a marketing ploy to gain revenue. If they had said that the MK 3 update would have cost $10 and had actually fixed some problems I would have bought the update. Very dissapointed in the new company. Poor choices have been made. Why did they remove the Foliage Pack and freeware downloads from their site? Most addon's should install according to RS.com. Most addon routes should also install also. Garder's routes ( I believe) need the RSDL Foliage. No longer availabe. So this would hamper his sales. Nice of them!
    Last edited by jamesphh; 06-20-2009, 04:37 PM.

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      #3
      Now I'm REALLY fed up that I can't even get the damn thing to load up. When I click "Start Railworks" in Steam, it will NOT load up. It was working fine before. But this afternoon, it seems to be aggrivating me when I really don't want the aggrivation.

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        #4
        Excellent post, Jim, which sums up how I feel.

        Why can Catholics not get on with Protestants in Ireland. Why can Muslims not live in other countries without trying to force them to adopt their way of life and laws ? Many Westerners live happily in their countries and abide by their rules ?

        When in Rome then do as the Romans do !

        Why do some have to bash Pakistanis living in the UK but not Chinese, Italians, Polish and people from other nations.

        Why can the Palestinians not live next to Jews without trying to kill them at every opportunity.

        Why can the Muslims in Lebanon not live with the Christians.

        And what about all the atrocities and genocide in Africa, like in Darfur and other African countries, people getting murdered because they are from different tribes ?

        There is no hope for mankind and North Korea and Iran rattling their sabers also does nothing to promote living together in peace.

        I'd better get off my soap box before somebody takes a swipe at me !

        O t t o
        Web site: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk

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          #5
          Someone please help me with the problem I have in Railworks. I don't want to reinstall it after all the hard work I put into editing the routes and scenarios.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Driverman2008 View Post
            Someone please help me with the problem I have in Railworks. I don't want to reinstall it after all the hard work I put into editing the routes and scenarios.
            Try posting about that in the RW General forum, but doubt whether anybody can actually help you.

            But then you would never know unless you try.

            O t t o
            Web site: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk

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              #7
              Silence!!!
              That's what's bugging me. When was the last time a company launched a new anything and were dead silent? Launch a game on Friday with no interaction with the purchasers even to the point of shutting down your own web site? Been a week and not even a peep out of them. Not a consumer confidence move.

              I wonder WHO they intended this sim for. Ask an average MSTS user and he'll say Trainz is to toyish. Ask an average Trainz user and he'll say MSTS is to hard. Both would agree on the need for better graphics. When I fire up RS I feel like I'm stuck somewhere between the two with excellent graphics. Is this the consumer base they are looking for? The average casual user who wants to just watch trains go by with nice scenery and low operating demands?

              It would take some serious deep pockets to take Auran and MSTS head on. Not the sims themselves, the 3RD party people. I would hate to foot the bill for a developer to produce all the great improvements available for MSTS alone!

              Either way we'll never know until they SAY SOMETHING.

              Dave......
              Artificial intelligence is no substitute for natural stupidity.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Driverman2008 View Post
                Someone please help me with the problem I have in Railworks. I don't want to reinstall it after all the hard work I put into editing the routes and scenarios.
                Try this it might help



                John
                Last edited by Capt_Scarlet; 06-20-2009, 05:55 PM.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Capt_Scarlet View Post
                  Is there a manual somewhere about how to find what you are looking for ?

                  O t t o
                  Web site: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk

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                    #10
                    Neener neener neener!

                    Told ya so, Otto. You're wondering about the financial solvency of WTNITW, I think they're selling reworks faster than they can count the money. I go away for three hours and what do we get? You want world peace, good luck with that, one guy with just general overall disappointment, another irritated by their Vow of Silence, and one guy who got lost on the way to the RailWorks general forum. No really LARGE number of RS complainers since most have coughed up the cash and have abandoned railsim, so they can move to the new forum and complain about the railworks problems instead.

                    Jamesphh (how do you phrounounce that?), I think you mean "Garber", I never heard of "Garder". And I THINK his routes use the 3Dtrains foliage pack rather than the WTNITW pack, whatever they are they're included in the \Assets\Allaboard folder. I have all his routes Yeah, I know, we always PLAY vicious cutthroat competitors, but we're really friends. Even tho my routes are better than his, all he does is lay half a mile of track, fatten it up with 50 megabytes of PDF docs, and calls it a "route". Anyway, I never downloaded either the 3Dtrains or the official foliage pack, and both routes have all the fuzzy vegetation they need. There was something in one of his emails about needing to install one before the other, I forget why tho. I also suspect those having trouble gettin his route to work in the new game are forgetting to copy over the Allaboard folder or copying it to the wrong place or forgetting to delete the blueprints.pak file or something, until I actually get ReWorks (if I do) I can't really troubleshoot or try to duplicate any of the gripes I've heard.

                    Sparky, new official rumor: reason for the silence is not just counting the money, they're also busy trying to figure out what to change their name to next week so they don't have to take the blame for this week.
                    sigpic

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                      #11
                      If that's the case I wish they would just come out and SAY that, being originally from the West Side of Chicago I don't even need to have it sugarcoated - "Sorry about yo' luck, white boy, that's all they is and they ain't no mo" is a perfectly acceptable answer to me. If they would just SAY the scenario tools and AI traffic are acceptable to them the way they are and they have no intention of making actual operations possible, then I'll skip ReWorks, buy Trainz 2009, go away and stop bothering everyone about it.
                      It's highly probably they've never been to the west side of Chicago.

                      OTOH, I have, so here it is:
                      KUJU'd AGAIN!


                      They've made a really nice program to represent the English countryside with it's commuter rail service. Even comes w/ a bunch of stiffs... I mean folks w/stiff upper lips, waiting for their train.

                      What more can you ask for?

                      Or something to that effect.
                      +++++++++++++

                      I've been telling folks for some time now, think of those guys as just another payware group. They'll do releases now and then of new content and on occasion discover something interesting in the functionality that they can tweek. And they'll have many people who take delight in what they provide. But don't expect any major overhaul 'cuz folks, if the feature that pisses you off is designed into the architecture (an analogy is the weave of fabric), it IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE.

                      You can fix minor errors.
                      You can add features within the constraints of the architecture.
                      You can never afford to rip out the guts of something and write it all over again.

                      So stop and think about what irritates you: Fiddling w/ rear lights is one level of expense. Completely re-writing the AI from scratch is something entirely different. Adding some new flower beds is one level of expense. Extending the braking system to portray North American practice is something entirely different.

                      Some things will get changed. And some things won't.

                      And don't forget about the basics: There should be a reluctance to change much of anything that will cause existing content to completely break, even if the change is something really good, because it comes down to the dilema of: are you willing to break everything issued beforehand vs. taking on the expense of porting the existing content. IOW, it takes a lot more money to make big changes and not because it's expensive to create.

                      In short, to do it right, you have to design it right -- there is no 2nd chance. And do design it right, you have to have the knowledge, talent, and money for that... which will be more than you'll need if you scope the project to something you can do on the cheap, and get it done rather quickly.

                      So step back, take a deep breath, and draw some conclusions. And if that's too hard, just say:

                      KUJU'd AGAIN!
                      Dave Nelson
                      sigpic
                      Seldom visiting, posting less often that that.

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                        #12
                        NEW RELEASE!!!!

                        Re-RetroWorks is proud to release RS3!

                        Included in the box, a full copy of MSTS and all the documents you didn't get last time..........!

                        Dave....
                        Artificial intelligence is no substitute for natural stupidity.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Panda Monium!

                          Wassup, Dave? Hard to say, one of the suggestions I've made is a simplistic "dispatcher mode" map so you can pause the game, issue basic orders to AI trains to "take the hole" or "stop at next signal" or "get your caboose in gear" and untangle traffic on the fly. The whole concept of "cast it in concrete before starting" is what causes the majority of problems. Whether they can or want to fix it LOOKS doubtful, but again if they're swearing omerta how can anyone know for sure? One thing that made a lot of people mad was the silly introduction of derailments going thru a closed trailing point switch, and they DID remove that for most of the manual switches in Mark 1. Mostly your analysis is probably spot on tho, a lot of features that were buggy or poorly implemented they "fixed" by disabling them altogether. Allegedly they are working on the new game tho, and promise to continue;



                          All I wanna know is if they're gonna fix this one issue, but they won't even offer a ballpark timeframe for all the people hollering for headlight projection. Sparky's dead on there, no communication at all is the main problem.
                          Last edited by sniper297; 06-20-2009, 10:31 PM.
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                          Comment


                            #14
                            I don't think you're going to see any major changes to RS/RW. The reason for this is that the people who originally wrote it, Kuju, are out of the picture now. From looking at their patches, what they say in their posts, and the products they offer I get the feeling that RSDL is composed primarily of content creators not programmers. While they do have inside access to the internals of the code I don't think they're capable of a major rewrite. I'm not trying to bash them, the content they created was quite good and they did fix some things but it seemed it was mainly through scripting. They admitted as much when they talked about their improvements to the signals for example. I think it would almost be better if RS/RW was put back under Kuju as they at least would have the right kind of talent to do the fixes that we want, doesn't mean they would actually do it but at least they would be capable of it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by JBrownCS View Post
                              I think it would almost be better if RS/RW was put back under Kuju as they at least would have the right kind of talent to do the fixes that we want, doesn't mean they would actually do it but at least they would be capable of it.
                              The problem doing that is that neither company involved in RS had the finances to further support cost intensive re-coding of it, not making any money doing so and continuing to incur losses. KUJU had to be taken over by Catalis N.V.and RSDL taking RS off their hands also did not make any profits.

                              We are lucky that somebody decided to have one more go, risking his own money.

                              In any case, the Kuju programmers who have coded RS have probably moved on to other jobs, if they were lucky to find some in the current economical climate.

                              O t t o
                              Web site: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk

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