Cutting back in preparation of whats coming.

[rpicardi1]

Before this post vanishes completely, I will have to defend some of the more "liberal" posters of late. They are now thinking before posting and coming up with valid points and arguments - never mind what side of the political fence they are on. Kenny has been making some very valid points as of late on several post that have vanished for political reasons.

I have a retired UAW friend North of here that has voted absentee. Those people usually vote in lockstep for the Democrat candidates. He is now having second thoughts about the choice he made last week.

How many people on this forum know what the meaning is behind the avatar of Paul1953, the mask from the movie V for Vendetta?

http://www.scifimoviepage.com/vforvendetta.html

Lets all pray that the events of that movie never take place in the United States because if you believe the polls and the Main Stream Media, things are certainly heading in that direction.

[westerngy]

Wow who stole Chuck's cookies would the offender please reyurn them uneaten.Well here we go more Alerts than I care to..maybe this forum should be called the Pit as to all the personnel attacks here.
Have you taken to time to notice its only the Americans that are posting here and the Doom on you prevails.
Chuck picking on Canada if it makes you feel better go for it but we could turn off the oil and water taps.Oh yea did I forget to say its not our banking system thats brought the greedy money peolpe of the World down for us all to pay and by the way the ones that have caused this fininacial turmoil just got wealthier from it.
Ron yes as of late there have been some interesting discussions but it seems a few want to turn this into a mud sling competition and thats not going to happen.....Remember we are the invited guests of Nels and its his forum and site.

Will I lock it right now no as that would deny more slinging to be done

[kevarc]

Poor ole Chuckie. He was just born at the wrong time. Just think, with his attitude what he could have accomplished is either Germany or Russia in the mid 1930's.

[Paul1953]

"Maybe in the People's Republic of Canaduh..."

Silly Resident of the District of Criminals
Everybody in the know knows its "Soviet Canukistan"!

"I think I'll start allerting the Mods posts..."

you could also hold your breath, same results, I'd imagine.

"After all Kenny and Paul and the others (MikeNE and Ms Katz) alert everything we conservatives post (and brag about it offline)..."

oh? do tell?

"and the (you should only laugh) Moderators then kill everything other than "Hail to the Chosen One" and "Socialism is the great shining future":...."

Interesting. I've not read a single paen to either side since the "Night of the Long Knives". But in any case, I wouldnt sweat the socialism. Yer headed straight the other way, and wont pass Go to get there.

"Has anyone wondered how we went through 2 presidential elections and multiple congressional cycles without violence and ONLY for this election do we apply the alledged fairness doctrine??????? "

Power of the media , son. I'd a thought you would have glommed*onto that by now.

"Only after a concerted attack by the aforementioned communists and the ascension or decension (as you wish) of one of their own to "unbiased" moderator... And after the Kommissars were losing most of their arguments on content but not vitriol??????"

Perhaps if the rightwingnuts acted less like thier masters, the pendulum might not have swung so far the other way. I got some great Bush cartoons, but theres no way they'd last 5 minutes here now.Ask me if I'm happy about that!.

"Anyone want to bet how long it takes until this expression of my right of free speach is suppressed???? (Yes I know it's Nels' house but I did not engage in direct personal attack and can at least produce some proof of my assertions on here.....)"

There is a small danger your "free speach" might be spell-checked, but that's about it.


* obscure Heinlein reference

[rpicardi1]

By Wednesday, the political bickering should be all over. We will either still be a free nation with all of its problems, or heading down the road to socialism.

[cheese23]

Same old talking points from the other side socialism this socialism that. and then you complain when the people to left use the same talking points. Double standard.

[cp5513]

Interesting how one of the contenders for the Prez job has been given the 'socialist' tag, and I'm saying this as someone who has spent enough time behind the old iron curtain and actually knows what it is like. Here in Canuckistan as you've called it, our Conservative party would probably be called socialists by you, simply because they support universal health care (disaster in the polls if they did not). I agree with Paul on this, I say regardless of who wins - your country is actually heading the opposite way. Another 9-11 incident and you're there.

[cheese23]

Interesting how one of the contenders for the Prez job has been given the 'socialist' tag, and I'm saying this as someone who has spent enough time behind the old iron curtain and actually knows what it is like. Here in Canuckistan as you've called it, our Conservative party would probably be called socialists by you, simply because they support universal health care (disaster in the polls if they did not). I agree with Paul on this, I say regardless of who wins - your country is actually heading the opposite way. Another 9-11 incident and you're there.

so your saying that neither man is going to take this country in a socialist direction. Considering you probably know what true socialism is.

[NSdville]

I Love this room!

I love this room! Seriously! Before---- I just walked around happy and blind to the fact that I was being robbed aimlessly by people in my own country. You guys have given me a better, more hightened sense of caution. I am digging through who did what and what to whom.

Thank you Gentlemen,

Vote your conscience next week. You may not have it much longer.

[Kenny1234]

our Conservative party would probably be called socialists by you

Hell, Ted, no need to even cross the borders for that comparison. If conservatism icons like Barry Goldwater or William F. Buckley were alive today, they would be labeled as "elitists" and "out-of-touch intellectuals" by our present pro-dominionism, pro-small town conservative operatives.

Similar thoughts on the Constitutional fallout from another 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmCC_jasq0E

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[cp5513]

so your saying that neither man is going to take this country in a socialist direction. Considering you probably know what true socialism is.

You have part of the idea. If I got things right one candidate stated he wanted the Fed to buy up bad mortgages from homeowners, yet with a straight face calls the opponent a socialist for his taxation ideas. Pot calling the kettle black? No need to point out every western democracy has progressive taxation schemes already (yes including the US). So both are socialists if you want to take it to the extreme (buying debt from the banks anyone?) but you need to look at real socialists before you paint anyone commie red. A true socialist would want all private enterprises to be owned by the state, and I don't see anyone advocating this.

Also remember in a pure capitalist state were it ever to be created, would end up being about as bad as any totalitarian state ever seen, except for a king or dictator the wealth would rule. To a point all nations require some socialist tendencies to function and ensure there is a 'middle class'. Otherwise ...ever heard of serfs?

Remember too that capitalism and democracy are two different things. Capitalism works just fine in an autocracy (China), and communism was imagined by Karl Marx himself to function within a modern industrial democracy (free of greed though, obviously doomed to fail by design).

[muskokaandtahoe]

Interesting how one of the contenders for the Prez job has been given the 'socialist' tag, and I'm saying this as someone who has spent enough time behind the old iron curtain and actually knows what it is like. Here in Canuckistan as you've called it, our Conservative party would probably be called socialists by you, simply because they support universal health care (disaster in the polls if they did not).

Ignore the shouted labels as they don't do anything but attempt to inflame. The issue is simple: To what extent should the Federal Government be involved in distorting/contorting the economy away from whatever position it would take if left fully alone?

Virtually all people would agree some level of distortion is perfectly valid as the change is clearly a plus. Food and general Product Safety for instance. Carring on to extremes, such as picking your employment for you, would get very, very few subscribers. What's left is the broad middle. Arguing about what should be in that list is a perfectly good thing to do... IMO a sign of engagement, even if the process of argument is mostly unseemly.

For myself, going down the road of government sponsored health care -- ala Obama -- is not at all good thing. Others differ. I would very much prefer the McCain approach, which is to (1) remove the current distortion caused by giving corporations tax incentives to buy health care for employees (A WWII implemented idea); (2) Giving ~2/5ths of the annual corporate savings back to all Americans in the form of a tax refund; (3) Requiring those corporations to give the other 3/5ths of the savings to employees in the form of salary increases and/or Health IRA's; and (4) letting all Americans buy health insurance across state lines as there is well over a 100% difference in annual price from highest cost to lowest cost programs bound up within state boundaries.

Employees would get the same amount of money to spend on health insurance each year as they do today but they, not the corporations will choose how it is spent, with any unspent funds being saved for another time. And shopping out of state could easilly produce huge savings.

Run that program for 4 years and reassess. If access to affordable health care is still a problem, figure out what else to do. The Obama program is a one time, lock-it-up-forever solution that'll make health care as friendly, productive, and useful as the DMV or post office.

I agree with Paul on this, I say regardless of who wins - your country is actually heading the opposite way. Another 9-11 incident and you're there.

Typical cowpie.

[muskokaandtahoe]

You have part of the idea. If I got things right one candidate stated he wanted the Fed to buy up bad mortgages from homeowners, yet with a straight face calls the opponent a socialist for his taxation ideas. Pot calling the kettle black?

Actually it might be the cheapest solution for the feds to simply take a large number of defaulted mortages and offer each of those houses to the local fire department for fire training.

They've already have acquired enough by buying Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac....

[cp5513]

Great posts Dave, I actually agree with you that there are some intriguing ideas with McCain's plan on healthcare. I'm still hoping the US can come up with a way to bridge the best of what the private and public systems have to offer.

But I do really believe the US can teeter over in case of another massive terrorist crisis. I hope you are right and that is cowpie.

[Kenny1234]

I would very much prefer the McCain approach, which is to (1) remove the current distortion caused by giving corporations tax incentives to buy health care for employees (A WWII implemented idea); (2) Giving ~2/5ths of the annual corporate savings back to all Americans in the form of a tax refund; (3) Requiring those corporations to give the other 3/5ths of the savings to employees in the form of salary increases and/or Health IRA's; and (4) letting all Americans buy health insurance across state lines as there is well over a 100% difference in annual price from highest cost to lowest cost programs bound up within state boundaries.

Employees would get the same amount of money to spend on health insurance each year as they do today but they, not the corporations will choose how it is spent, with any unspent funds being saved for another time. And shopping out of state could easilly produce huge savings.

Run that program for 4 years and reassess. If access to affordable health care is still a problem, figure out what else to do. The Obama program is a one time, lock-it-up-forever solution that'll make health care as friendly, productive, and useful as the DMV or post office.

Ask yourself why such a plan wasn't accomplished when one side recently had control of both legislative and executive branches of government? Why, instead of McCains approach, did we get "income redistribution" antics like the Prescription Drug Bill instead? We didn't 'empower the people' back then, because empowering anybody ahead of corporations was never the plan. Everything that was done, legislatively, placed individuals second to the concerns of medical corporations. And now, only when things have deteriorated to such a degree that the 'dark side' of socialized medicine has a very real chance of rearing its head, all of a sudden the better plan is to 'empower the people'?

Without the real threat of the medical scene going all the way down a fully socialized road, 'individual empowerment' plans like McCain's never would have seen the light of day. They would have always been shoved in a drawer, deferring to the interests of pharma's corporate sponsorship of politicians. Legislatively, 2000-2006 was the opportune time of little legislative resistance, and the intent of 'empowering the people' was always the furthest thing on their mind.

I certainly cant blame the threat that socialized medicine represents today totally on the pull of the pro-socialism activists. Its also the failure of capitalism, which as we saw in 2000-2006, prioritized wrong.

McCain may actually have the better plan, but once the socialized threat subsides, 'money in politics' will get its way again, and things will ultimately return to how things are now. The pharma lobby is just too powerful. Discussing the technical merits of different health plans without harnessing the lobby is like debating the technical merits of different auto sound systems while living in a high crime neighborhood.


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