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Thread: Red signal problem

  1. #1
    seern Guest

    Default Red signal problem

    I continue to work on passenger related activities for the KHP route. Currently I am trying to finalize an activity using the soon to be released Rocky Mountian Railtours train by HAC. The activity and all AI trains run fine in the 2d version, but when I go 3D I get a red at MP 105.7. This has happened twice now. There is no approaching AI traffic at this time. There is an AI train ahead of the player train which has caused no problem up to this point. I have made sure that there are no placed consists fouling any switches or the main. So I am puzzled as to what could be causing that red. I have sat for 15 minutes without it changing, and pressing tab get "permission denied".

    thanks for any help

    Sharon Evans

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada.
    Posts
    1,538

    Default RE: Red signal problem

    Hi

    I think that's around Eldon. I've come to a conclusion that
    there might be a route design problem at Eldon. Every time I
    try to change a path at that location, I end up crashing the
    Activity Editor. No problem at any other location on the route.

    I also get a crash with the Scenery Editor every time I close
    it after looking at the KHP route; no other route does this to
    me.

    I've found that when designing/modifying paths to ignore trying
    to use Eldon for anything, just let the path route through that
    area without trying to make a meet etc,.

    As far as the Red - no advice (at the moment). I'm the person
    who came up with the signaling fixes in the V1.03 update and I'm
    still trying to analyze why I'm still seeing problems. I think
    I had a revelation last night and I don't think it's good news.
    I think we have a major design oversight in TrainSim! When we
    enter a block, there appears to be no way to cause more than one
    oncoming signal to change to Red; not very good on single track
    when we are using Restrictive (Permissive USA) signals. Once we
    pass the first Permissive, we have no way of determining there
    is an oncoming train and set the signals accordingly. I think
    this is only a problem if we have more than one Permissive block
    in a single section of single track.

    What should happen before we can enter a block is that Reds need
    to be set at all opposite direction signals we will pass while
    in the single track section. This isn't happening and so far I
    don't see a way to fix it.

    GaryG


  3. #3
    seern Guest

    Default RE: Red signal problem

    Thanks, Gary...That is exactly where the problem is, Eldon. As I said I am riding the yellows of an AI tain ahead of me. At this point it is far enough ahead that I am getting green sometimes before I pass the approach. At Eldon, I get a non flashing yellow at the west switch and the red at the east switch. There is no opposing AI traffic at this point of the activity, so the problem must be coming from the train ahead. I have had another problem with the KHP that I posted about on the MSTS board. I can't get saved games to reload. It crashes the sim and my computer.

    Thanks

    Sharon

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    .
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    Default RE: Red signal problem

    Sounds like the AI train ahead of you is getting hung up at some point or maybe it's going through a manual switch which, I believe, would not reset itself thereby causing the Red. My quess is that the AI train ahead is getting a red of its own that stalls it. I suggest examining the path of that AI to see if it is conflicting with any opposing traffic.

    Longhairedwizard

  5. #5
    seern Guest

    Default RE: Red signal problem

    Longhairedwizard, already tried that. The path of the AI train is the same as the player train, doesn't go through any switches, just ends at the end of track. A point that I have thought of is if the end point for 2 trains are at the same place, would there be a conflict. What gets me is that it works fine in the 2D player, then hangs in the sim. It takes a hour and 20 min to get to the hang point. Thats a lot of time to check it after any changes.

    Sharon

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    Default RE: Red signal problem

    I know how you feel, I'm working on a PennCentral activity for the O&WV route and even though I had routed all trains to take the siding to the trains right (to ensure N.bound and S.bound trains always took opposite sidings), the players trains kept getting a red signal "Before" the 2nd siding in its path thereby creating a stalemate. One thing I did to resolve this was to 1. NOT use the "Start passing path" at every siding for the opposing AI trains path. and 2. Started the Player path a bit further back (I had not started at an extreme end of the route) and retimed the AI traffic. Moral of the Story:....even when everything runs fine in your 2D VCR playback, that DOESN'T mean you'll get the same flawless performance when actually playing it.

    One thought though, is how far ahead did you space the AI train travelling ahead of your player train?...The concensus seems to be that for signals to "behave" properly, there must be a minimum of 3 signals between "Opposing trains". I assume this to also be true of trains travelling in the same direction. Now I break that rule all the time by having super dense AI traffic travelling in the opposing direction of the player train (seems that the AI dispatcher alwasy keeps the AI trains a block or siding apart), but if the Northbound player train were to be "closer than 3 signals to an Northbound AI ahead of it or trailing it" than I'm not sure of the possible consequences.
    If your activity has pick-ups and/or Drop-offs in it these can throw things off (even if you used a waiting point with the approximately correct waiting time on your player train to similate the pickup/ dropoff)

    Spacing your AI trains too closely can cause you to get stuck at a red light until "every" AI trains passes you at that point. this happened to me on a O&WV route activity. To reslove it without increasing the times between every AI trains I just broke up the times between the first couple AI trains the player was likely to meet around that particular area.

    I also notice what you put in your custom consist will affect the "performance" of the AI train. Some AI trains (when all are spawned equal times apart such as every 15:00 minutes) will inevitabley close the distance faster than others reguardless of horsepower and train length. I think this has to due with what engines are used. A 20 car train with 2 GP35s on the point will fly along, but a 20 car train with 4 GP9's will creep along the route in the VCR playback (even though both trains have about the same horsepower)

    Longhairedwizard


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