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Thread: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

  1. #1

    Default request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    Hi all,
    I was windering if it's possible in a later version to change from a loco to one that isn't part of the train? eg I'm on loco 1 on train A, and I wanna change to loco 1 of train B (that could be sitting in a nearby road. I'm more or less asking if it's possible to do in msts what can be done in Trainz?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    Since MSTS Bin George cannot add new code to the program, he can only fix bugs in the original code, I'm guessing this would not be possible. What you can do is couple your engine onto the rear of the other train, switch cabviews. Once in the new cabview, uncouple your old engine :)

  3. #3

    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    I'm not so much a fan of doing that, as I wanna recreate real life situations. In real life, if loco A comes off a train, they don't couple it to loco B to change locos, then use loco B to shunt loco A out of the way do they?

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    You could use an invisible loco.

    Train A arrives and couples to the invisible loco.
    You change to the invisible loco, uncouple, drive to train B and couple.

    You then change to loco B and uncouple the invisible loco.

  5. #5
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    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    Hello Craig,
    I agree with you, there are a lot of things they can do in the real world that we cannot do with MSTS. The problem is MSTSBin George cannot add new code to MSTS, that would be a copyright infringement. He can only modify the existing code to make it function properly, then offer those modification for free. We can only hope that some of the things that are missing in MSTS will be available in the new sims on the horizon :)

    Take care,
    Rich S.

  6. #6
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    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    Close. I don't think it's a copyright infringement issue. (Well, the whole MSTS Bin project may be a copyright infringement issue, but that's another topic, but not why he can't add new code.)

    As I understand it, MSTSBin George has the assembler code, but not the C (Visual C, C++ ???) Source code, so he can change values in the assembler code, but he has no way to re-compile from source files, so he can't add new functionality. I'm not a programmer, but that is what I have gathered.

    Having said that, it is even more amazing what he has accomplished.

  7. #7

    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    Hi Marshall !

    Un-compiling a program into it's original program code like C++, adding to it and then re-compile it back into an EXE is called "Reverse Engineering", which is illegal if done without the permission of the owner of such program code.

    Hacking it's Binary code is a slightly different matter and has been done by others before, like the guy who issued a fix for the MSFS-2004 EXE so that it does not ask for a MSFS disk having to be in the CD-ROM drive, Microsoft ignored ! ;-)

    There is a discussing going on in the German MSTS community with regards to the legality of what George is doing, but can not see Microsoft being concerned ! After all he is taking no money for doing it and is helping to sell more copies of MSTS to guys who hear about MSTSBin and want to try MSTS for the first time ! :7

    Take care, O t t o.

  8. #8
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    Default RE: request : changing to loco's in different consists.

    I had a discussion off-forum about this recently. First off, IANAL and most of what I know about this comes from my (indirect) familiarity with the MAME (arcade games) project.

    [font color=blue]Un-compiling a program into it's original program code like C++, adding to it and then re-compile it back into an EXE is
    called "Reverse Engineering", which is illegal if done without
    the permission of the owner of such program code.[/font]

    As I understand it, "Reverse engineering" a program to determine how it works and for one's own education is perfectly legal, at least in the US. If George wanted to see how MSTS handled coupler physics for work on George's Rail Simulator, that is perfectly within his rights. Re-using and re-releasing any of the source code in his project would depend on the EULA and copyright rules of the author, but would almost certainly be prohibited. As an example, AMD likely "reverse engineered" the Intel Pentium processors when they developed their K6 line, but since they used all unique circuitry and code, that was okay. So yes, MSTS Bin is likely technically illegal (well in violation of EULA and Copyright) under US Law.

    And in some cases, it is preferable NOT to try to reverse engineer a product as if you happen to come to identical solutions independently that is perfectly legal, but if you have prior knowledge of a competitor's solution, it is not.

    It also becomes a gray area when you are talking about "MODIFYING" the source code. If the original program, had a function "Y=X^2" and I use that in my source code, it is copyright violation. If I use "Y=X*X", I haven't copied the source code verbatim, but it is likely still violation. If I see that Y generally varies with the square of X is a generally known condition, than it can't be copyrighted by Microsoft/Kuju and I can use it freely. Also, if I set up my software so it works similarly but does not use an exponential function, that is new code and legal. (Like I said, it all gets pretty gray).

    [font color=blue]Hacking it's Binary code is a slightly different matter and has been done by others before, like the guy who issued a fix for the MSFS-2004 EXE so that it does not ask for a MSFS disk
    having to be in the CD-ROM drive, Microsoft ignored ! ;-)[/font]

    There may be some other issues going on there. MSTS removed the check for a disk to be in the CD-ROM drive with the Official patch to MSTS 1.4, so they may have decided this was a bad idea in the first place and then not cared. I would think that that type of fix would violate the US DCMA rules against circumventing copy protection, but if said fix is on a website hosted in Angola, and there is no mention of who the author is, MS has to weigh whether it would be worth prosecuting or not.

    [font color=blue]There is a discussing going on in the German MSTS community with regards to the legality of what George is doing, but can not see Microsoft being concerned ! After all he is taking no money for doing it and is helping to sell more copies of MSTS
    to guys who hear about MSTSBin and want to try MSTS for the
    first time ! :7[/font]

    At this point, without knowing how the contracts were written, I am not sure whether it would be Microsoft, Kuju, Atari, or UbiSoft whose copyright (or more accurately EULA) was being violated, or who would be able to take legal action against it.

    The following is purely speculation, but . . . I am pretty sure Microsoft is aware of the program by now, but am guessing either their lawyers decided that they can't do much with an international website and webhost (unlikely, I think they would at least send a Cease & Desist Letter.), or they decided that having MSTS Bin gives them an active user base which will help with MSTS X sales (also unlikely), or they just haven't gotten around to doing anything with it yet. Also, as you point out, MSTS Bin doesn't do anything without MSTS anyway, so it may in-fact lead to more sales of the original program and MSTS may be aware of this, if they still get any residuals from new sales, which may be another reason why they aren't legally going after Bin, although this is pretty shaky also.

    OTOH, we may see more interest and activity from Microsoft now that BIN could be a competitor to MSTS-X, although I think that unlikely, as I expect MSTS-X to be enough of an improvement to MSTS Bin that MSTS-X will not be impacted by BIN.



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