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Thread: Metro North or LIRR M-1

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestevet View Post
    Part of the reason I was interested in the M-1 manual in the first place is that I got a chance to tour the new Silverliner V the other day when I took my son in to Philadelphia (they have it on display on the 0 Track at Suburban Station until October 16). I've noticed the external similarity to the M-1 and subsequent cars, but after looking inside, it appears there are other similarities as well (although clearly it's a unique car).

    Mind you, my own list of priorities still stands, but I'm a big fan of seeing good equipment of all sorts in the sim. I think the LIRR, Metro North, ConnDot and NH, and NYC fans have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to equipment and routes (this from a Pennsy fan). I know in the real 3D model railroad world, those are very popular.

    Is anyone out there even interested in an M-1 or it's brethren? or were those fans shooed off long ago by the lack of equipment and routes?

    Steve

    If there were any out there they all went to Trainz and did the Harlem Line. Fishbowl and I had a small conversation about that when I displayed my Metro North repaints, no one really seems to be interested in any New York area railroads. Such a shame, they would have been great.

  2. #12
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    But anyway, thanks to "bluebeard" and his gang on the Black Pearl (as Chuck likes to call them)
    Aye, but did they bring the rum matey? Ya can't have the pearl and no rum! Not accordin to Capn Jack!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    The only thing really missing are the maximum speeds which can be obtained in P1, P2, and P3.
    The only mention I found of a maximum speed was a reference to the "Maximum speed capability of 100 miles per hour". I went through the manual but didn't see a max speed in each handle position. I know we talked about this before with the Silverliners, but I'm guessing the max speeds for each handle position are approximate numbers anyway, so many things will affect the actual speed achieved at each position. What is needed is the T.E. curve at each handle position, but the manual doesn't have those.

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    Also of note is that the LIRR eventually modified the M1s and M3s and got rid of the P2/P3 acceleration rates. The reason was the current demands of up to 12-car trains in P3 and P4. Remember that these operate on 750VDC third rail. A 12-car train in P3 or P4 can pull more than 10,000 amps from the third rail IIRC. They did something similar with the M7s which involved reprogramming the inverter drive computers. The M7s used to start off at >2 mphps. Now they're around 1.0 mphps.
    There IS additional discussion about the series vs parallel advance. It mentions the advance occurs only in P-2, P-3, and P-4. I'd have to look a little closer to see if there's a better discussion about that. It is a Budd manual, so it doesn't cover the later modifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    The variable braking rates should be fairly easy to do in MSTS also. Basically I would use a blended brake, set the MaxBrakeForce to a token amount, and then adjust the dynamic brake curve so I end up with 1.9 mphps deceleration at 100 mph, increasing as speed drops to 3.0 mphps at 50 mph.
    I like accurate braking! Wish I had better for the Silverliners.

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    Now for someone to actually make these.....
    Here's the thing, this Operator's Manual has some fantastic diagrams in it, it's a real gem, wish I had something like this for the Silverliners. It has side and front elevations, diagram of the underbody layout, interior diagrams, and the real hidden gold is a complete annotated diagram of the cab (just priceless for making an accurate cab view). You'd think more operator's handbooks would have that, but I only possess two that do - this one and the Metroliner manual.

    Building a model of the car would be easy. The time consuming part would be getting good looking textures (like to the quality of Kurt's work) and a cab view.

    Steve

  4. #14
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    From the operators manual for the M-1, not surprising:

    "The two motors on each truck are permanently connected in series. Sets of power switches and field shunts provide four running motor connections. These are full series, series-parallel, in which the two pairs of motors are connectd in parallel, and two combinations of series-parallel with field shunting. Starting resistors, selected by cam-operated switches, are used to regulate power when starting or changing motor connections. Transition of motor connections up to the running notch selected by the master controller or ATO (Automatic Train Operation - Steve) is performed automatically. The rate of change in acceleration and braking is also regulated by the control equipment on each car to prevent jerking when changing running notches or when changing between power and braking."

    We can probably guess how they got rid of the P2/P3 levels from that.

    Joe - was it subway cars that you mentioned had done away with field shunting?

    Steve

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestevet View Post
    From the operators manual for the M-1, not surprising:

    "The two motors on each truck are permanently connected in series. Sets of power switches and field shunts provide four running motor connections. These are full series, series-parallel, in which the two pairs of motors are connectd in parallel, and two combinations of series-parallel with field shunting. Starting resistors, selected by cam-operated switches, are used to regulate power when starting or changing motor connections. Transition of motor connections up to the running notch selected by the master controller or ATO (Automatic Train Operation - Steve) is performed automatically. The rate of change in acceleration and braking is also regulated by the control equipment on each car to prevent jerking when changing running notches or when changing between power and braking."
    I remember reading this also on railroad.net a few years ago. Knowing that the top speed in series-parallel with full shunting is 100 mph (probably physically capable of a bit more than that actually if there is no overspeed cutout), then I can take an educated guess at the rough top speeds in P1 though P3 (naturally these speeds are higher with a longer train). P2 (series-parallel without field shunting) is probably in the 60 to 75 mph range. P1 (full series) would be slightly more than half of P1, perhaps 35 to 40 mph. P3 I'd guess would be intermediate between P2 and P4. The big question is how much field shunting was needed to reach 100 mph? I'd say probably 75% weak field (i.e. a lot of shunting). That would mean the speed in P2 with no shunting would be on the low side of the range I gave, say in the low 60s. And P1 would be a little more than half of ~60 mph, so let's say 35 mph. P3 I'd say is around 80 mph give or take.

    I'd be curious to see how close my guesses came to reality. Anyone here actually run these things?

    We can probably guess how they got rid of the P2/P3 levels from that.
    I think they got rid of the P2/P3 initial acceleration rates but kept the field shunting intact because they still needed 80 mph to keep the schedule.

    Joe - was it subway cars that you mentioned had done away with field shunting?
    Yes, all the DC motor fleet (R32, R38, R40, R42, R44, R46, R62, R68) was castrated, for lack of a better term. Top speed dropped from about 55 mph to 42 or so. I don't think the subway ever used or needed more than about 50% weak field shunting. Even so, getting rid of the field shunting cut the top speed by about 25%.

  6. #16
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    There is even more good stuff in the braking section, it describes the electro-pneumatic system "Dynamic braking is of the non-regenerative type using braking resistors to dissipate electrical energy...selection of the braking resistors is performed by cam-operated switches using the same current regulating controls as are used for propulsion."

    "Dynamic braking is a continuously variable range controlled by an analog electrical signal in a trainline loop."

    "Both dynamic and air brake systems are controlled by an electrical analog signal in a circuit called the P-circuit. The P-circuit is a loop from the front of the train to the rear and return...The value of the current in amperes determines the amount of braking produced...An application is made by making a reduction in current."

    "The air brake system monitors both the P-circuit and dynamic braking, then provides any braking required in addition to that supplied by dynamic braking. At lower speeds where dynamic braking fades or in case of a failure in dynamic braking the air brake will do all the braking" It goes on to show a diagram of the master control handle with both the power and braking sections of the handle, power to the right, braking to the left, the braking sections in order from right to left are: Min, Max (the continuously variable range between those two as mentioned) then Emergency, and Park

    skipping a bit

    "Note: Before restarting, after emergency brake application, the recharge button must be pushed allowing a 25 second delay for recharging of the brake pipe"

    So that gives an idea of the amount of time it takes the compressor on one of these cars to fully charge the system, that should be helpful in setting up the brakes.

    Reading a little further, it seems that "suppression" is achieved by a Maximum application of the brakes (I assume to "Max" as described for the control handle).

    Steve
    Last edited by mestevet; 10-11-2008 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Add info about suppression

  7. #17
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    You say that you've seen the silverliner V on display, could this be a future project for you?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain82 View Post
    You say that you've seen the silverliner V on display, could this be a future project for you?
    It could be, but it's not on my list right now.



    If I were one of the SEPTA engineers, I'd be a bit disappointed in the welds on the transition you can see between the ends and the sides of the car. But then I'm an aerospace engineer and I have different expectations in quality. The harsh lighting down in Suburban Station (underground) helps to highlight the imperfections. It's nice inside though, they've gotten rid of the dreaded 3-wide seats.

    Steve
    Last edited by mestevet; 10-12-2008 at 07:15 AM.

  9. #19
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    Thanks for the interesting discussion Steve and JTR;I always learn something. And thanks for the Silverliners-look forward to trying those out.
    Last edited by bavli; 10-12-2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Gratitude.

  10. #20
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    It almost looks like an M-8

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