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Thread: SEPTA Silverliner III

  1. #91
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    This will be appreciated.
    "Science is belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestevet View Post
    I'm resurrecting this old thread I started because I've also resurrected the project, and I'd like to keep all the progress shots and info in one place. As a few people have noticed, I've been largely absent in the last few weeks, mostly on account of family responsibilities, but also to take a little break from MSTS stuff for a while. Well the bug bit me over the last few days, and I've picked up the Silverliner III project, which had a lot of progress but was just never finished. Anyway, I wanted to show the status, and maybe see if any of the folks who were originally interested are still around!

    Attachment 35250

    Attachment 35251

    You might say "they're done, release them!" but they're not done. Two major projects remain: the interior and the cab view. As has been discussed previously, the Silverliner IIIs were left hand drive, and so the Silverliner II cab isn't a match for the Silverliner III layout (although there is much similarity). I'm also torn over doing the different interior configurations. There are two different styles currently, (originally there were 4) - basically divided into the ex-"Airport Cars" (with 2-2 seating and luggage spaces) and the ones that retained higher density 2-3 seating (although at present, there's only a small exterior difference between the different cars). The car shown, #235, represents an ex-"Airport Car". Also left to complete is the sound package (they're slightly different than the SLII's and I have captured sound to represent that). There are also a number of smaller details that I want to straighten out as well.

    Just to review, these are the Silverliner III cars, originally purchased from the St. Louis Car Company by SEPTA for use on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Delivered in 1967, they arrived just prior to the merger to form PC. During their careers for the PRR, PC, CR, and SEPTA (don't forget, CR operated commuter service after PC, prior to quasi-public agencies like SEPTA and NJT taking over direct operation - I have a photo showing a Silverliner with a CR logo on the side, I've not seen too many of those). The original Silverliner III cars, less a few that succumbed to accidents, are still in service with SEPTA, but planned to be phased out late this year or early 2011 (along with the remaining Silverliner IIs) with the arrival of sufficient Silverliner V cars. And for those that seem confused by this (as I've had to answer quite a few questions over time) New Jersey Transit never operated ANY Silverliner cars, period. NJDOT did own similar Arrow I cars, also built by the St. Louis Car Company, and later Arrow II (Built by GE/Avco) and Arrow III cars (also built by GE/Avco) - only the Arrow III's remain in service as EMU's. The PRR, PC and perhaps Amtrak DID operate some Harrisburg-NYC trains (and possibly others) with "borrowed" Silverliner equipment, but these operations were not funded by, nor operated by NJDOT or NJT.

    Steve
    Good to see you around again Steve. I'm looking forward to seeing progress shots of the Cabviews and Interiors, please keep us posted if you can.
    Steven


  3. #93
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    Steve:
    I have a shot of the control stand (minus controller and brake handle) from the Rail Rodeo this past Saturday. The controller/brake handle are the same as the S II. As soon as I upload it, I'll post it on here. If not by Monday, drop me a line [email protected]

  4. #94
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    Thanks, I'd be interested to see your photo.

    I do have quite a few photos of the SLII, SLIII (and other SEPTA equipment) cabs, however. I've been given access to them on several occasions, typically helpful crew members at Elwyn when a car is laying over for the return to Philly, although I have a series of shots of cabs from Powellton Yard when "EMD_E8A" arranged a tour with me. I actually have photos that show a number of the variations between the Silverliner III cabs - mostly little details (like which way did the route the cable for the ditch lights to the switch, to the left or right of the window? or does the cab signal house a digital or analog speedometer?), but interesting for a detail nut like me!

    The biggest differences between the Silverliner II and Silverliner III cabs, aside from the obvious right vs. left hand position, are the location of certain secondary controls. As mentioned, the controller and the brake valve are common between the cars, as are the Aspect Display Unit and a few other items. But the position of things like the various switches, brake gages and other stuff (like the routing of cables and air lines that can be seen in the cab view), are enough that I feel compelled to create a separate view to give it a more "St Louis Car" feel.

    On a related note, since I released the Silverliner II cars, through research I've done at the Hagley Library, I've found photos Silverliner II cabs in their original configuration. When I released the PRR and Reading versions of the cars, I didn't have that information, so I based the cabs for those cars on the one I included with the SEPTA versions of the cars. The controller and brake valve were the same, but the cab signal was different - more similar to those seen in GG1's and E44s with 5 lights representing the different aspects vertically configured, but in the same rough position as the current ADU - and there was a speedometer mounted on the right, above the brake gages.

    I suspect that the details in the cabs were changed over time as repairs were made, to account for the variation in configurations between the various cars. For example, in some Silverliner II cars, the two brake gages are positioned vertically, one over the other, and in others they're side by side (the way I have it in the cab view). However, in all the Silverliner III cars I've seen, the gages are vertical. It's unclear to me when the Aspect Displays were changed though, it's possible it was done at the time of the Morrison-Knudsen rebuilds, but it was certainly done by then, since the manuals issued by M-K after the rebuild show the new style ADU.

    I've mentioned this before, but will do so again because I find it so interesting. The controller, which has forward and reverse incorporated into the operation of the notches of the handle (notch right for forward, left for reverse), is very similar in appearance and function to the controllers installed in the MP-54 cars when they were built (ca. 1915!). Even the Silverliner IV cars have a controller that's similar in fuction and appearance (if not the same as those in the SLII & SLIII). In photos I have of the Arrow I cars, they also appear to have the same type controller, but it's unclear to me if the Arrow II or Arrow III cars (in original configuration) were also equipped with that type of controller (the Arrow III cars I've seen at present have a different type controller, but they've been rebuilt).

    Steve

  5. #95
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    Speaking of Powelton, Steve check your Facebook account.

    On the Arrow II controller, I'm surprised you say you're not sure if they're the same as the other cars. I saw the diagram of the engineer's controls in my Arrow II manual, and to my eyes they looked the same as the Silverliner IV and Arrow III controls.

  6. #96
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    Here's a photo I took of the cab of SLIII #223 at Elwyn back in 2008. I have a bunch of other photos from that same session, including many details of the cab and the interior (over 60, too many to include here):
    IMG_3220sm.jpg

    I've been working on the SLIII cab but don't have any progress shots worth showing (nitpickers have a way of pointing out obvious errors in things that aren't complete yet, which drives me nuts, so I don't post progress shots anymore).

    My tired old brain doesn't retain every fact, and I haven't checked my Arrow II manual, but it makes sense since there were many similarities with the Silverliner IVs. I'm still not sure about the Arrow III though, as the only photos I've encountered of the cabs are post-AC rebuild, and it would make sense that the control system would be different with a change from DC propulsion to AC, so I don't have confidence I'm seeing the original cab configuration. I'd be willing to bet the original AIII controllers were the same, but I have no evidence to back that up at present.

    Steve

  7. #97

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    Nice work so far Steve and welcome back.
    Best looking Silverliner ever.

  8. #98
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    Hey Steve!!!
    Long time no hear from! Well as long as i am still your beta tester for EMU's i am still here!! lol!! The funny thing about these Silverliners and other EMU's is that there so similar to were i work "NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT". I don't have much knowledge on the Silverliner fleet or even the Arrow fleet but similarity is with the control equipment.. We use on some of our fleets ME42 brake valve. Some equipment used ME43 but still similar. Now The ME42 was use though out the 1920's and 30's.. But cars purchased in 1990 used the same or similar Valve..Crazy huh...So i am not surprised Mp54's and Silverliner's have similar equipment
    Last edited by fishbowl_5227; 10-01-2010 at 02:49 AM.
    Shawn

  9. #99
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    Good job as always!

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by mestevet View Post
    Here's a photo I took of the cab of SLIII #223 at Elwyn back in 2008. I have a bunch of other photos from that same session, including many details of the cab and the interior (over 60, too many to include here):
    IMG_3220sm.jpg

    I've been working on the SLIII cab but don't have any progress shots worth showing (nitpickers have a way of pointing out obvious errors in things that aren't complete yet, which drives me nuts, so I don't post progress shots anymore).

    My tired old brain doesn't retain every fact, and I haven't checked my Arrow II manual, but it makes sense since there were many similarities with the Silverliner IVs. I'm still not sure about the Arrow III though, as the only photos I've encountered of the cabs are post-AC rebuild, and it would make sense that the control system would be different with a change from DC propulsion to AC, so I don't have confidence I'm seeing the original cab configuration. I'd be willing to bet the original AIII controllers were the same, but I have no evidence to back that up at present.

    Steve
    The AIII controller IS the same one as the Silverliners. Most NJT engineers (and some SEPTA) have the newer style plastic handles which are easier on the wrists, and that one covers the notches pretty good. The brake handle is only used for the GP40-PH, -PH2-CAT, -FH, and the now withdrawn Comet III Push Pulls. Everything else NJT has uses the EPIC brake stand.

    BTW..... any plans for 234..... the ONLY EPIC equipped Silverliner?

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