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Thread: More Complex Signal Problem

  1. #1
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    Default More Complex Signal Problem

    In this case there is a Tall 2H 0T signal at the bottom of the screen. Other signals simple 0T types. The only switch is at the bottom of the screen. All links are pointing toward the top of the screen. All trains have drivers, destination (behind them), and future scheduled activity. All trains Succeed.

    Some issues are:

    The two head signal only shows RED based upon the switch pointing to a track occupying train. The direction not "selected" by the switch shows GREEN despite a valid train dead ahead. While not fatal, it seems to not be logical to a casual game player.

    The two 0T signals show Green (links toward the train) with no regard to the switch setting. Again as a casual player I would expect then to show RED at all times. These types of signals, on a single track, will show RED for the signal closet to a train, YELLOW for the next closets and GREEN for the furtherest from the train. Placing more 0T signals behind the train does not alter this condition.

    If you look at the 2D Map you see that YELLOW is shown for one switch position but not the other. YELLOW in this case means a RED & GREEN condition on a 2 head signal. I think that it should show yellow for both positions of the switch since the 2 head signal shows RED over Green or GREEN over RED. Not a big deal but inconsistent.
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    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  2. #2
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    Where Standard Gauge is 3 feet between the rails.
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    Default

    Assuming that you are looking out of the cab window in picture 3, all three of the signals should be displaying a STOP aspect. It is possible that the route that is aligned with the switch could show RESTRICTING. At any rate, all you should be seeing is pretty red or pretty flashing red lights...

    I guess the logical question is this in the game or in the route editor. In MSTS, I know the signals all display red and green in the RE to show if they're working correctly, and only actually "work" in game.

    I know that probably doesn't help much, since I haven't done much with RS, but maybe it helps a little?

    Robert

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Default

    Hi,

    If you are going to try and use the signals you have alot of reading to do. I can tell you first off the BNSF signals didn't work and I don't think they have been fixed yet. They did not include the scripts to run them.

    I only partially understand the US signals.

    There are different signals for each situation and the ones supplied only cover the junctions included in the game. If you have some odd junction you will have to create your own signal script to cover it.

    0T are used on track with no junctions just to show occupancy and send messages.

    Each signal name kind of tells you what it is for.

    Example:

    Tall 2H 2T 1E 40/40 =

    Tall post, 2 Light Heads, 2 Tracks, 1 of them being an yard Exit, and both tracks are rated the same speed.

    Basically if you are using the 2 head system of signals you have to look at the section of track you are trying to cover. How many track choices there are. Are any of the choices yards or track that you don't want the signal to check for occupancy or messages.

    If you notice there are 40/40, 50/40 and 60/50 but no 60/60 or 50/50, etc. Why not? Because they aren't used in any provided scenario so not included in the game. You have to make your own. The only situation I've seen that all the signals are aware if is if the track speed of the diverging route is 15 (restricted). The signal picks up on this and displays this signal correctly.

    You can still get by on this but you will not receive the correct signals on approach if you do not use/create the proper signals.

    Oh the special signals, well, you have to read the scripts to find out what they are for. They all cover specific situations where there are multiple junctions on the same section of track to be covered by the signal.

    Basically each signal does 3 things.

    1. It checks to see if the junction between 0 and whatever arrow (my term) is good and signals appropriately. Arrow 1 always being the "straight through" arrow.
    2. It checks to see if the 0 arrow or any other arrow has a train occupying the track in front of it.
    3. It sends messages backward (usually) to tell the signal behind it what it's status is. Example: I have a train in my section or I am switched to an arrow other than arrow 1 (diverging).

    Based on all this it gives you a signal and sends a message backwards unless you told the signal that one of the arrows is an exit arrow in which case (for that arrow) it does only #1.

    So for testing purposes, you usually need more than 1 signal in series.

    My experience is this for testing.

    Make sure that you place your arrows on different sections of track beyond the junctions you want to cover. If it is 1 piece of track section (you can tell by selecting it) then split the track and weld it so you get the little red triangle then place your arrow beyond the triangle. I have just found I get better results when I make the junction sections completely separate from the track it connects to. Not sure why.

    After placing signals exit completely out of the editor back to the route selector and then come back in or the signals do not initialize correctly and will show wrong signals. Switching from world editor to scenario editor or world editor to play mode does not always initialize them correctly.

    If you do not use the correct signal to cover the junction or track you are trying to cover it will not signal correctly and AI traffic will not act correctly.

    In your example you would use a 2H 2T signal at the bottom before the junction. Your choice on using the 2H 2T 1E or 2H 2T speed/speed depending on whether you want to track the occupancy on the diverging route. If it is a siding then I would say no and use the 1E. As for the other 2 signals well, they should be facing the other way and if you didn't exit out and come back in they wouldn't initialize correctly or if the trains don't have drivers, I'm not sure they will show occupancy.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by pikehkr; 07-16-2009 at 01:46 PM.

  4. #4
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    Since I am uninformed on the lore of the railroads there seem to be two major sets of signaling rules. One set are the rules for the geographic area as used by the railroads in that area. The other are the individual rules governing each in-game signal. If you reconcile these rules in favor of a specific signal, in a specific circumstance, you should have a properly signaled situation. That is not always possible.

    An examination of the most recent signal information published by Rail Simulation there is almost no description of the circumstances within which a specific signal, or signals, shall be used. Rather they have a majority focus on how to create a signal. It is almost a tacit admission that the provided signals may have flaws and the customer is provided the tools to fix them.

    I had some forum correspondence with RSDL where they said that a comprehensive set of descriptions of signals was underway and in the hands of selected customers for review.

    I suspect that this is not as difficult a subject as we are currently seeing. The interpretation of the current crop of signals appears to be a mixture of what they should do and what they really do. Thus compromises cloud the subject for the novice customer that wants to build a route with reasonably accurate signals for the covered area.

    There has been considerable discussion about the intent of Rail Simulations not only about signals but also about several similar technical areas. To-date we have no information from the vendor to indicate that they are considering these and perhaps other areas. Each customer, influenced by their needs and biases, is left to arrive at their personal guess as to what the future holds for the hobby.

    As a note: I have submitted the scenario to Rail Simulation for their examination.
    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  5. #5
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    You just confused me which is easy to do. I thought you wanted to understand the signals as they exist.

    The current US signals are:

    Dwarf - Dwarf, ground lights, used in yards
    Short - Short post
    Tall - Tall post

    1H = 1 Head
    2H = 2 Head
    3H = 3 Head

    0T = 0 links beyond the default (0) link.
    1T = 1 link beyond the default (0) link.
    2T = 2 links beyond the default (0) link.
    3T = 3 links beyond the default (0) link.
    etc...

    1E = 1 exit link (normally this is the highest link number)
    2E = 2 exit links (normally the two highest link numbers)
    3E = 3 exit links (you guessed it)
    etc...

    40/40 = speed of track is 40 mph on both tracks
    60/50 = Speed of main track (link 1) is 60, diverging track (link 2) is 50.
    50/40 = Speed of main track (link 1) is 50, diverging track (link 2) is 40.

    The "H" part is just the number of heads.

    The "T" part is pretty easy to understand... You need to place 1 link on each track beyond the junction. The number 1 link is almost always the main route or the "NOT diverging" route. If you have 3 tracks beyond the junction you need to use a "3T" signal. If you have no junction but just want to place a signal so you know the occupancy status of the track in front of you or the status of the signal in front of you then you use the "0T" signals.

    The "E" part just means that the exit links do not track anything beyond them. Once a train passes the exit link the signal erases that train from it's memory and does not figure it into any signal. In other words it will never show red due to a train being on the section of track beyond that link and it will not respond to any signal beyond that link. Most often used to designate a yard entry point.

    The ##/## is used to inform the preceding signal that there will be a speed change at this signal if it is set to diverge from the main track. This changes the "approach aspect" of the preceding signal.

    Now, you should be able to tell what this means.

    Tall 2H 3T 1E 60/50

    If not, then I suck at this and you can hash it out with RW.

    Pikehkr

  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pikehkr View Post

    40/40 = speed of track is 40 mph on both tracks
    60/50 = Speed of main track (link 1) is 60, diverging track (link 2) is 50.
    50/40 = Speed of main track (link 1) is 50, diverging track (link 2) is 40.

    What about turnout speed/interlocking, control point limits?

    In the real world the turnout speed could be 30 MPH and the siding or other main track could be good for 40 MPH.

    Where “speed signals” are used (as an example under NORAC operating rules) if you were going to diverge through a 30 MPH turnout onto a bonded siding you would first get an “Approach Medium” (Yellow over Green) and then at the control point/interlocking you could get as an example a “Medium Clear” (Red over Green).

    The entire train movement though the control point/interlocking limits would be at 30 MPH regardless of the speed the siding is good for.

  7. #7
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    Again, I am only explaining the US signals that exist and are currently distributed with the software. All the "whatabouts" need to be created through scripting if possible.

    Pike

  8. #8
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    Default

    Thanks for the signal descriptions. I guess I need to see if that info will be enough to let me setup the scenarios I think are rational. That is where a narrative for each signal would help.

    Reading the How To Make Signals Wiki blew out some remaining nuerons. That plus my RW install may be bad will keep me busy. So signals that did not work for me may be due to stuff only on my PC. Cleaning house....
    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  9. #9
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    Default Grrrrrr

    Well, I've been screwing around with the short US signals trying to get AI traffic to do something halfway intelligent, NOW I'm hearing rumors the short signals are missing the scripts. Guess I gotta start over with the tall signals and see if those work.

    "These types of signals, on a single track, will show RED for the signal closet to a train, YELLOW for the next closets and GREEN for the furtherest from the train."

    As you've already heard signals here and there are different, and also subject to change from time to time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEPlfjUqyHk



    For the basic block signals tho, it's green, flashing yellow, yellow and red. Red means next block occupied, yellow next block clear and the one after that occupied, flashing yellow the next two blocks are clear and the third is occupied, green means the next three blocks ahead are clear. The fourth might or might not be occupied, signals generally don't show that far ahead. Two headed signals are another animal, generally used at switches, green over red indicating straight, red over green curved. Depending on the next signal state that's also subject to change, altho once you understand the basics it becomes intuitive - red over flashing yellow means the switch is set for the curve, and the route on that curve has yellow as the next signal and red after that. In RS (and probably RW) if you set the speed limit on a yard throat at 15mph, the signal will display flashing red when the switch is set for the yard, useful indication to let the player know he's heading for a dead end. Especially when the player is one of them guys who like to drive HSTs at 500MPH on a route designed for peddler freight ops. Interlocking signals are also different, if you link the arrows to a specific track then it should show red unless all the switches are set for the route to the other trip.

    https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=239517

    I haven't been able to get that to work in RS yet, guess I should try it with the signals that allegedly operate correctly and see what happens.

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Question What????????

    Latest scuttlebutt says the US short signals are missing the scripts, seems to be confirmed by WTNITW:

    http://www.railsimdownloads.com/wiki...Status+Updates

    If that's carried over from RS then the shortys shouldn't work there either, and those are the ones I've been using;



    Those are the three different types of US signals, reports say the tall works in RW, the shorts don't, haven't heard anything about the gantry heads. I looked in RS:



    And that appears to be the script for the short 2 head 2T 40/40. Pray tell, is this a new bug rather than one carried over from Railworks beta I mean Rail Simulator?
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