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Thread: Signal Prevents Switch Setting

  1. #1
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    Question Signal Prevents Switch Setting

    Service 3 is an AI set to go to a destination 33 minutes after scenario starts. Service1 is a player train.

    The first picture is no signal in front of player train (service 1). In this case I can change any switches including those in the blue pre-planned route.

    In the second picture a USA 1H 1T signal is placed in front of service 1. Link0 points away from service 1 and is at the signal. Link1 is in front of service 3 and points toward service 3.

    The red indication of the added signal is correct with an active engine on the siding. However, now I cannot change any switch in the pre-planned (dispatcher) route. The issue is the lock down of a route when a signal is added. One of the unfixed problems is an AI blocking elements in a route even though it may not be set to run for hours. This test seems to suggest that a signal may trigger that route lock down.
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    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  2. #2
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    Is this happening even when the AI is a much lower priority than the user engine.. Also what destination instructions etc does player service have (I dont see service one by the way in any screenshot) ..

  3. #3
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    Service 1 should be 2. Fixed msg.
    Tried different priority combinations with no affect.

    The only issue I see is that an AI train scheduled in the future blocks switch settings with the signal present and does not when it is not there. Maybe that is the way it should work and I have a misconception. Hopefully, after I report this, Rail simulation can add it to the puzzle. Probably, until they get the signal initialization issue fixed there may be other things that seem odd but if everything started as it should they would not occur.
    Last edited by boleyd; 08-13-2009 at 10:20 AM.
    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  4. #4
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    Thumbs down That IS fixed.

    http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtop...?f=215&t=77530

    Locked switches are a patch Mark 1 "fix". Until they actually FIX that plus the trailing points derailment lunacy I don't see any purpose in trying to tinker with it. To me it's like trying to tune a lawnmower for the Daytona 500, regardless of what you do it's not gonna win the race. All I can tell you is good luck with it, my experiments in the past showed you CAN throw a manual switch provided there's enough space between the signal and the switch to get your engine in there, but it will snap back after the engine and cut the train off. Or if you're backing up allow the last car and rear truck of the second to last to diverge, then snap back and split the switch.

    https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showpo...4&postcount=22

    AFAIK there's no workaround for that, but there's no point harrassing them to do anything at the moment, the priority right now is to get rid of the proc errors. Once they get a stable program I'l start screaming insanely about the AI traffic again, at the moment I'm holding fire since they got enough on their plate.

  5. #5
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    I was curious to see if I could just add to their bag of scenarios when they do take a serious look at it. The procedure call errors may require someone to buy a book on "C". In my case the errors happen mostly when I am "futilely" messing with signals. I am not even angry anymore and not medicated. There is a glimmer of interest in signals by the vendor but the long awaited release of specifications will eventually need fixes to follow. Then they may be into the dreaded KUJU LAND.
    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  6. #6
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    Gotta love this signaling stuff and AI stuff.

    I'm trying to think of a way to explain what I know about it or what to compare it to.

    There is an AI dispatcher who controls the switches. There are AI trains that can move around from place to place. The AI dispatcher can control those AI trains and make them stop and go, wait, reverse, etc.

    The AI dispatcher can not make you stop, go, wait, reverse. It has no control over you. So, what it needs from you is an exact schedule of where you want to be and at what time. Based on that it will try and work out the schedule of the AI trains around you or you around them based on "blocks" and "signaling". If it can great! If it can not, it can not.

    If you don't want to tell it where you are going and when, it won't schedule you and it will not give you control of any of the switches the scheduled AI trains need to complete their schedules. The more detail you give the AI Dispatcher about where you will be and at what time, the more it can manipulate the AI trains around you and you around them. If you want you can even help the AI dispatcher by adding destinations to the AI trains and saying when they will be at a certain place and for how long.

    Imagine this conversation between a human and the AI.
    AI: You are going to pull into a siding to let a train pass? Ok. What siding?
    Human: Siding B.
    AI: Great What train?
    Human: Train A.
    AI: Sweet. Train A will be there at 8:15. What time will you be getting there?
    Human: It's a secret.
    AI: Hmmm, What time will you be leaving the siding?
    Human: That's classified.
    AI: Ok, I can not really work that out. If you tell me when you will be there and when you will be leaving, I can probably work this out.

    At this point the Human starts a rant on a message board somewhere...

    Not this message board and not any humans here of course... I'm just speculating...



    Of course it is more complicated than that. You need to understand blocks, signals, and destinations. The more you want the AI to do the more of all those things you need to have.

    In your first picture both trains are technically in the same block (no signals between them) and the junction is also in the same block so when starting the game there is no conflict other than you have two trains in the same block. This could lead to a collision but as far as switching goes, there is no conflict and you can change it.

    Adding the signal between the two services separates them into 2 distinct blocks. Using the 1H1t signal across the junction makes it act like a protected junction and only one train can control that junction at any given time. Who controls it is a matter of who is scheduled to use that junction first according to the AI. I think if you had used a 1H0T you would still get the two blocks. Not sure if that would lock the junction to 1 train or not. You can try it.

    Pike
    Last edited by pikehkr; 08-13-2009 at 06:53 PM.

  7. #7
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    Well, this is the first time I have seen AI/signals/player explained philosophically in this manner. A good way to test this approach is with an all AI scenario. One of the tricky things is when does AI expecte a signaled area? Install signals you think are ok may not agree with AI and cause a problem that you cannot relate to your shiny new signal.

    What does the AI look at to determine my "player" intentions? I put in a destimation disc on the player tain. Gave it two destinations and times were assinged. The switchs WERE set for the first player destination. You can't change them. will run the scenario tomorrow since this looks like a lengthy process to see just what you can do witha "scheduled" player train with one AI waiting to go on a siding.

    Even this approach could be hopeless if real flaws exist. Hopeless = waste of time in this context.
    Regards - Dick
    i5 2500K$ 4.2ghz, GTX 750 2gb, 8gb of SkillFULL memory, A 700 watt power thingy, lots of cables
    Program to take screenie weenys from da puter. Bro, Dude, Man operator Murysville,Pa.



  8. #8
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    Default Something else to tinker with

    One important item I learned early on, when spawning a train from a portal it's necessary to have a clear block to spawn it into. In other words when you create an AI service and add it to a portal, it will spawn on that track in front of the portal IF there is at least one signal separating it from any other trains. Or in the case of my early railsim experiments the MEMORY of any other trains, I found that on an unsignaled route the first AI train spawned, ran to the destination portal and was removed, 10 minutes later the game crashed when the portal tried to spawn the next train into what was still considered an occupied block even tho the train that previously occupied it no longer existed.

    I don't know how much they tinkered with this, but another of the previous railsim experiments I had AI trains entering and leaving the mainline via switchbacks to see if that would allow some of the switches to be unlocked before the AI train was actually headed for the main. No luck there, in fact AI 2 insisted on setting its path while AI 1 was still running, thereby stopping AI 1 from running the entire path. Thinking to demonstrate this oddity I made a quick test route, then two slow scenarios (scenario editor interface is so clumsy it actually takes less time to make the route than the scenarios), but it didn't do it the same way as before. Zipfile attached at the bottom, one scenario is done the right way with AI 1 having a higher priority than AI 2. The other scenario AI 2 has the higher priority, which I expected would trigger that business with AI 2 setting switches whiich would stop AI 1 from running. Except it don't do that, which demonstrates the old adage that you shouldn't anticipate the results of an experiment, cuz if you knew for sure what was gonna happen then it ain't really an experiment. Haven't gone back to restest it on railsim yet, but I suspect either they tinkered with the wiring or I got one of the random times it does work. Player isn't a factor in this since he's on an unconnected track.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #9
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    I was thinking bout this a little more. And you know, it isn't just one thing. You are creating a rail network. Putting 1 signal in or even 10 signals but only on one side of the track just won't give you the desired affect.

    That would be like putting traffic signals only on one side of the main drag in town while the other side does what it wants. It won't quite play out the way you would like.

    Try to not think in terms of AI trains vs player trains. It is the AI dispatcher that controls both or tries to. In order for it to do that, it needs quite a bit of information.

    In the example you are stating you want to try. You need a few things. You need signaling around the junctions that track the occupancy of the tracks involved. You need destination points on the siding track and the passing track. You need destinations beyond the siding and passing tracks to send your trains to after the pass. You need to schedule 1 train onto the siding track with an arrival time and make the departure time a specific time. For example, your siding train arrives at the siding destination at 8:10 based on the schedule provided by the AI Dispatcher when you add the stop at instruction. You then tell it the departure time (bottom time line of the stop at instruction) of that stop will be 8:30. This gives you a 20 minute window of time where this AI train will be stationary. You next need to give it another stop at instruction beyond the signal and in another block. You then need to schedule the passing train so it has a stop at instruction for the passing track destination somewhere between 8:15 and 8:25 (approx). It must also have another destination point somewhere beyond the siding in another block. The siding train will pull in and stop. It will wait until 8:30. The passing train will take control of the signals and pass the siding train. The siding train will start up again at 8:30 and continue on it's way.

    If the siding train was a player train, the junction would free up immediately after the passing train went by. You should get a red for occupancy until the passing train clears the next block but as such, you could still move out of the siding either way. So even though you said you would wait until 8:30, that was just to give the dispatcher a "window" of time where you will not be moving so it can schedule the passing train to go by. If it passed at 8:14, you could clear out after it, unless you have another train scheduled to pass by before the 8:30 time. Then you would have to wait for both to pass before the AI dispatcher would unlock the junction for you.

    The times I'm using are examples and the actual time needed for scheduling is less but once the schedule is done, the junction/signal is locked for that train. Think of it like a junction database. It knows based on the AI Dispatcher's schedule what train is next on the schedule to pass by and sets accordingly. Until that train passes the junction/signal it will not change for another even if that other train arrives first.

    Pike
    Last edited by pikehkr; 08-14-2009 at 12:24 AM.

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