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Thread: Interlocking signals for double crossovers!

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Cool Interlocking signals for double crossovers!

    In real life double crossovers have the switches interlocked so all four switches are either straight or curved. Obvious when you stop to think about it, what would be the purpose of throwing one switch curved and the other three remain straight? RS/RW don't provide for interlocking of the switches themselves, and when I first tried interlocking the signals they didn't work. Either they fixed that recently or I hallucinated the failures I had a year and a half ago, since I have one working here.



    To the best of my knowledge this is the correct way to signal a double crossover, with the links beyond the trailing point switches so that both the facing and trailing points need to be set correctly to get a green. I couldn't get that to work when I first got railsim, looked at the default routes to see how they did it and found that they didn't do any double crossovers in the defaults. So I've been kludging around it by linking the second trip before the diamond and putting a 1H1T "anti derailment" signal between the diamond and the trailing point exit switch. Clumsy and a pain to find places to put the extra signals, so after some lengthy discussions with Pike in other threads I took another shot at it.



    This is what I get now, with the player train on the right track the right signal is red over red when the near switch is curved and far switch straight because that's not "route set". Throw the exit switch curved and I get red over green, route set block clear. The left signal stays red over red because of the path - you can't see the path but it affects everything, so when you link signals you MUST test in game with an actual service. Otherwise you might think something is linked incorrectly when it's just displaying red due to a conflicting path, even if there's no train in the scenario one path or another will be active and only one path thru any diamond is allowed at a time.



    After making the crossover I threw both switches on the left track straight, checked green over red behind and backed straight up. Throwing both the near left and far right for the crossover, I now have red over green on the left track, red over red on the right track - not because the switches aren't set, but because the path for my train is blocking the signal trace from that the primary trip zero for that right side signal to its secondary trip 2.

    Works in free roam, haven't tried it in a standard scenario yet. Good news and bad news for me, if this works consistently that's four less signals I gotta find room for on every double crossover, bad news is I gotta go back and redo all the ones I already did with the klumsy kludge.
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    Last edited by sniper297; 09-10-2009 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Default

    Ah, interesting.

    I just dropped some crossovers on my route.
    Ill be using the UK signals, but that seems to make sence.
    Thanks for that, its a great start point for my utterings when Im placing the signals.
    Steam Nic :- ΞΕZ♠C๐צΞ Fraggle
    Project Watch: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrAdrianSW

  3. #3
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    Default

    My problem with the double crossover in the past and I cannot tell from your picture is that 3 out of the 4 signals would show correct, in the very bottom picture, but 1 would show double-red while it's counterpart would show Red/Green. It's been a while since I messed with one so I can't remember.

    Pike

  4. #4
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    Default On the other hand...

    Yeah, that's exactly what I got when I tried it back in February or March of '08, possibly it was fixed in Mark 2 and I missed it. Last night I found it don't work for all, altho possibly I got a different problem with the trips.



    Tower 18 on the Chicago Elevated, I tried to interlock across all trailing points here, it also crosses two diamonds on the straight route.



    If all the switches are set correctly I SHOULD get green over red for straight and red over green for curved, but even tho the left track and right track configurations are nearly identical, the left one works and the right one don't. This double crossover in the foreground also don't work, correct aspects in three directions but not in the fourth. Possibly the problem is the distance between the switches - note there isn't much space between the far switches on the double crossover and the left and right junction switches, it takes some fiddling to get the trip far enough away from the points so they don't interfere with the trace. Next experiment with that I'll tear up the tracks on this side of the junction and move that double crossover further this way, see if that works. The junction itself is working as is right now, but with all the extra signals it resembles a Christmas tree sometimes.

    Interesting little demo of how the paths affect the signals;



    Empty scenario, no trains in it. Double slip switches default to curved, this one has all four points curved so a train approaching from any direction would take the diverge. That being the case, wuffo the left signal correctly displays red over green and the right one shows red over red? Like any regular switch or a diamond, slip switches allow one and only one actual path at a time. Dunno how it determines which is the default path that takes priority over the other when there ain't any trains or actual paths, maybe that's what the MaxGhostTrains and GhostServiceFrequency stuff in the blueprints is all about.



    Add a couple player services in free roam, when I select the DB101 that becomes my train, and the signals swap so now the left is red over red and the right one has the path. Hit the #8 free wander key, stroll over to the subway train and click on that;



    Now they swap back again.
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  5. #5
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    I would check the points very carefully. It looks like in your pic, the point for link 2 might be beyond the link 0 on that signal. That would cause a problem I believe. I've never put a link of one signal beyond the zero link of another signal. If I did, it would lock the signal to show red.

    When you start getting into putting signals really close together. Like trying to signal a yard ladder. It will work then all of a sudden 1 signal will refuse to behave. I usually end up deleting it, saving, then trying again. Half the time that will fix it, the other half I have the points messed.
    Joy!

    Pike
    Last edited by pikehkr; 09-11-2009 at 07:25 PM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by pikehkr View Post
    It will work then all of a sudden 1 signal will refuse to behave. I usually end up deleting it, saving, then trying again. Half the time that will fix it, the other half I have the points messed.
    From my limited experience with signals and working with Thomas on his CSX route to start with found that some signals used with switches would cause their path to default to diverge.

    Asked many times what it takes to stop them doing that and never got an answer.

    Eventually found that SPLIT-WELD replacing such a switch then caused the signal to default the switch to a straight path !

    There is no explaining why some signals do what they do and not being able to read and understand their scripts and there not being any clear and comprehensive instructions on how to use them, trial and error is the only solution to find out how they work.

    O t t o

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Default Yup

    Had the same trouble when I started adding dwarf shunt signals to the PO&N route, main thing seems to be get the box clear of the points, and you need to highlight the switch section to see where the actual base of the switch is.



    Is this okay? Should be, it's clear of the points, right?



    Wrong, still in the section that contains the points, you'll get a false red from this one. Haven't figured out how close is too close yet, for example is it good if just the box part is clear, or does the arrow pointer tip need to be clear of points at the other end as well? Anyway since it IS a fictional route I have the potential for changing the trackwork to conform to whatever the limits are. And they ARE a lot less than MSTS, where we found that the track trip for a facing point doublehead had to be at least 10 meters from the switch base to ensure it worked correctly and consistently. Another neat thing about RS/RW I found recently, with MSTS if you deleted a track section that had a signal linked to it that was pretty much guaranteed to destroy the track database, this little honey AUTOMATICALLY deletes ALL signals that are linked to or thru the track piece you delete with nary a hiccup.

    Found the old thread that has the original double crossover kludge in it;

    https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=269491

    So apparently it WAS broken at some point, at my age I do tend to forget more than I remember.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniper297 View Post
    Found the old thread that has the original double crossover kludge in it. So apparently it WAS broken at some point, at my age I do tend to forget more than I remember.
    At your age ? I am surprised sometimes that I remember anything at all at my age !

    That link brought up some memories of the early days of working with you and your RS routes, I have learned a lot from.

    I wonder what happened to some of the guys who were active then, like this Swedish guy ?

    O t t o

  9. #9
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    Cool Tight squeeze!

    Might make a difference if it's a primary trip or secondary link, also which way the overlapping ones are facing. Obviously more testing is needed to find out, but this;



    Short space between the bases of two switches, with secondary link 1 of three different 1H1T signals in the space between;



    which is really tight, and all three are stacked in the same spot cuz there ain't no room to separate them. Done that way it does work for all three;



    From either the station or the reverse loop both trailing point switches are lined for your track you get yellow or green, either one is set against you it's red.

    Odd thing I found here - you got a false red and you move the trip, save and D to drive, you don't even need to exit the scenario for that change to work. Speed limits are a different story, if you have a 15mph or lower speed limit on the secondary it's flashing red. Don't want flashing red, drag the selection tool on the track and change it to 20+mph. Or vice-versa, got a regular display and want to change it to flashing red drag the selection tool and change the limit to 15 or less. Either one, save, exit, signal don't change. Exit and restart the game, signal don't change. Move the trips around, save, exit, shut down the computer, make a fresh pot of coffee and tickle your granddaughter, start the computer and game up again, signal still don't change. Something in that parameter that reads the condition that makes it either a regular signal for 20mph+ or a flashing red signal for 15mph- is stored in there somehow, after changing the speed limit I've found the only way to get it to "take" the new setting is to delete the signal, place and link a new one AFTER changing the speed limit.
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  10. #10
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    Default Okay, here's a weird one



    Single crossover on a curve, the crossover itself goes straight but the main route is actually the curved route. My first impulse was to link 1 on the straight and link 2 on the curve as is standard, but in this particular case the straight is actually the diverge. Probably better in this case to link 1 to the curved mainline and 2 to the straight crossover. Anyone figured out the difference in the 40/40 vs 50/40 vs 60/50 yet? Near as I can tell it don't actually change the speed limit when you go thru one and they all react the same. If there IS a difference, is that passenger/freight or straight/diverge?
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