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Thread: Both ATSF and the BNSF versions of Seligman 2 are awesome

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    North Port, Florida.
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    2,412

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    Wade,
    Thanks for your comment on the switchstands. It sounds like the route makers are starting to take notice. However, I think you make it sound like payware routemakers have it harder than freeware route makers. Freeware route makers don't get to visit locations along their routes anymore than payware makers. I have a feeling that many freeware makers use track charts and other materials which they may have had to purchase while I question if some payware makers even did that. However, using markers from USAphotomaps or Google Earth provides sufficient data for really good placement of tracks. Any deviation from such markers would mean that guesstimates or don't really care methods were used. I have a feeling that something more personal than "making a living" has driven many freeware route makers to try to be as precise as possible. All I can say is that I am thankful for everyone who has contributed routes--it is an awesome amount of time involved whether that be payware or freeware. I would hope that someday the Streamlines route builders would consider at least putting in switchstands where missing on their routes. I don't think they change the track data base file. I am not sure whether the switch machines themselves would make a change in the tdb file. That is why it is important to get the route done right before it is put out for downloads.

    Bob Edwards

    Quote Originally Posted by wwhall View Post
    I do agree with Apco25 about Flagstaff. I said the same thing about Grand Junction on the Green River Route. Neither look much like the prototype towns. Part of that is MSTS limitations and part of it is the fact that probably neither town was extensively visited by the routebuilders recently, if ever. Given the low profit margin of route-building, it's probably not reasonable to expect routebuilders to make thousands of miles of travel and many days of documentation to catch every nuance of a route--especially when many of the people running the routes in the game wouldn't know the difference, anyway. It's also a lot easier to pack a ton of detail in a relatively short route, rather than one that is a couple of hundred miles long. I always marvel at the incredible detail in a route like Horseshoe or LaSalle, but either can be run from end-to-end in about an hour.

    As to OpenRails, I really look forward to using it as it matures a little more. Problematic as MSTS is, there are still a lot of features in it that "aren't quite there" in OpenRails yet. I do look forward to the day that MSTS can be relegated to essentially a file storage program and the route running can be done in OpenRails with the same or more functionality of MSTS, without all the bugs and crashes that plague MSTS.

    Finally, to answer the question posed above about switchstands on the BNSF Seligman--yes, they are pretty much there, except for a few crossovers (these seem to be missing on a lot of otherwise well-detailed routes) and yard tracks.

  2. #32

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    This whole thing about feeling cheated by SLI and that the price is too high based on only including 3 activities really is absurd. I buy from ALL payware vendors. Not lets see, Seligman 2, which includes full route, a hefty amount of locos and stock, and activities cost 35 dollars. Over at 3dtrainstuff, West Colton costs 30 dollars, and includes NO ACTIVITIES AND NO LOCOS OR ROLLING STOCK. Activites and stock must be purchased from DW at a total cost of over 100 dollars for all sp service packs, which were made for the West Colton route. So in reality West Colton runs you a total of almost 150 dollars to purchase route and all stock, and only 35 dollars for Seligman 2. Also, DW in reality, only puts out a better product in regards to railroad equipment. They don't build routes, so there they do not put out a better product than SLI. The gripe over you being robbed and blindsided by SLI is really getting old and pathetic. Oh, and one other thing, I'm not an SLI fanboy. I'm a railroad fan. Have I bought stuff I'm not happy with? You bet. Have I bought MSTS content I no longer use, and have removed it from my install....You bet. Dekosoft comes to mine as well as Auran. I must be old school. I do believe everyone has a right to an opinion, but at that same time, not every opinion needs to be spoken, or typed into a forum. Right to opinion, in my book, never meant a right to run off at the mouth. I remember being told as a young kid many many years ago....if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    North Port, Florida.
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    2,412

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    Buddy,
    Everyone should have a right to express opinions unless they violate the rules that this website has put in place. It would be nice if people would simply allow those comments to be expressed without trying to shoot a person for having said them. I am sure that payware dealers know what their competitors provide and will try to market what they feel will be cost effective for them as well as able to be purchased by their fans. Evaluations of products should be allowed with both pro and con comments as long as they are accurate and factual. They help would be buyers decide whether to invest money or not, and they also provide feedback to the dealers on how railfans feel about the products they are trying to sell. Can you tell me what is wrong with trying to get improved payware when it does not meet expectations.

    I believe when they call their route by a title then that route should replicate that route as best as possible or else provide detailed information about how it deviates. Some people don't make activities--I do. Switchstands are important when doing switches. It is a lot easier to see the switchstand rotate from the cabview than it is to watch the track move expecially if the engine is back a ways from the switch. Why do they omit sections of track? Those sections of track can be used in moves for local trains. Along the Green River Sub for example there are very few places that have sidings on the real track. But, to take out those sections on MSTS means even fewer places. To have a five mile spur track, which is really much further in the real world, to enter onto the Green River Sub mainline without any signal lights and without even a name as to what that track serves makes one wonder as to why they even took the time to put the track down in the first place. That happens at least 3 times on the Green River Sub.

    Do I think that Streamline route making can be improved--yes. Do I think it is up to the level that I expected--no. At least not on the Green River Sub.

    Bob Edwards

  4. #34

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    I buy rotten milk at the store. Does it require a public admonshment? No. Again, there was a time when people understood that not all opinions needed to be aired publicly. Maybe you were born after that time. You want EXACT replications. Well its not gonna happen. Another saying i was raised with is....if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. I have been involved with msts since the day it hit the shelves. Exact route replication is not an easy task. As a route builder both freeware and payware, they are forced to take some creative freedom with a route and maybe leave out certain things, that THEY. Feel are not important or are minor enough, but will still allow them to captue the overall feel or railroading a certain region. As a business owner myself i know firsthand you cannot please everyone. There are probably hundreds of us in the community that have obtained both freeware and payware product we were unhappy with. Again i found early on.....its a waste of time to whine about it. And yes there comes a point where an opinion becomes whining which is confused with expressing an opinion. If u are unhappy with a content provider.....don't seek out their content. I think suzuki dirtbikes are junk. I don't go around expressing my opinion on it because bottom line is....nobody really gives a crap. I just ignore their product.

  5. #35

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    For many msts users, tinkering around with msts is just as much of an enjoument as running trains. Take a route and go make scenery improvements in it. Heck its a great way to learn the editors. The raton pass route is a great example. You would not recognize my modified version of raton 3. It includes the elevated portion of i 25 in raton as well as i 25 on the climb up the pass. That made a route i was unhappy with.....a fun route to run.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Oshawa ON
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    I have to agree somewhat with cbff33 in that adding your own dimensions to a route, however complete, is satisfying. I usually start with adding Buses, nobody puts buses in the routes! Look at our highways and freeways and you will almost always see a bus, whether it is a charter trip, city to city or even state/province to state/province. When I see them I feel the route has now come to life.
    I am going to try some more changing/adding in of various objects as I get better at it through the assistance of these forums.
    Start with the simple things.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    cbff33
    Adding things to routes is not your own domain. Many of us do that, but you can't upload your work to help others like you can do with making activities. I would like to see some of your work. I do wish that Bob Wirth would allow upgrades to be uploaded after getting his approval. He has great track work on his routes. I wish that payware routes had the track details that Bob always tries to put into his work. However, to make the routes look more realistic he leaves that up to each of us. He has tried to make his work available to everyone--even those who don't have a powerful computer.

    Bob Edwards

  8. #38

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    Actually,Bob's track work is decent, but has many many inaccuracies. I would use Tennessee Pass as an example since that is my backyard, mainly the Monarch Branch. But what Bob did do, was to create just enough to give a person a feel of what it was like to railroad that route. I won't even seek permission to upload any of my modded routes because I use TONS of stuff from payware routes to do that. So I can honestly say....having travelled hundreds of times along the Seligman route, and 45 years of seeing the Tennessee Pass line, and actually having seen trains working the Monarch Branch...I would have to say, both creators took some creative liberties with their routes and their track work, and I do have to say, SLI has an edge in that dept. Most all route creators, have to sacrifice some part of a route. And that will always leave a group unhappy with that. But SLI has not ripped anyone at all. You want bad track work? You think SLI has somewhat poor trackwork. Download and install the original freeware Seattle aka Stevens pass route from the file library...or go back and run the default Marias Pass. We get spoiled over time. In every aspect of life. We forget where we came from...ie default MSTS. It's only natural.

    And I just spent the afternoon upgrading my walmart bought HP P7 computer with a 2gp ati 7750 graphics card, and a new powersupply to run it....and I can now say that the forested sections of Seligman that killed my computer down to 5fps, now is getting 40fps through the flagstaff-williams area.....Best 220 bucks I've spent in a while!

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