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Thread: Both ATSF and the BNSF versions of Seligman 2 are awesome

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristian View Post
    ....If the helpdesk of SLI is of not much help they will not be long in business. Making a living of trainsim stuff is not that easy.
    They seem to have done okay for the past several years.

    Bruce

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by P834C View Post
    Bob I have the highest regard for Bob Wirth's routes and your connection to him but I really don't understand your slam on SLI's version of Seligman.

    I don't get it.
    You're slamming SLI because they don't have the tracks that were in use prior to December 1960 (pre Crookton Cutoff) and their version of the BNSF Seligman 2 route is set modern day and their ATSF Seligman 2 route is set in the early 1990's? And the only section of the old route that still exists is the eastern portion from Ash Fork to Williams Jct. which is part of the Phoenix Sub.

    Yes, I think when Streamlines called Seligman 1 as the Seligman Sub and only contained half of the tracks I feel that is a bit mischievious. I was raising a question as to whether tracks went to Ash Fork from both directions and according to your answer they don't; just from the east. This then eliminates making activities for the steam era using Streamlines Seligman 2. Since they made the cutoff of the ATSF route for the early 1990's and the BNSF set for modern day--just how much different can they really be?

    Since they eliminated the track from Crookton into Ash Fork, I question just how far back you can run activities realistically even before 1990 since trains could have used the track from Crookton to Ash Fork for traffic to and from Phoenix.

    I realize that one can't have all the tracks that have existed chronologically over the history of a route, but at least you can still run trains over the tracks that were in place in any given era. We have a lot of steam engines and early diesels that could have been used very well on the Crookton to Ash Fork section of the route. That section of track was the original and historically important section of track. I think it is too bad Streamlines did not feel it worth their time and effort.

    I would also like to see Streamlines put switch machines and posts where turnouts are located on the Green River Route. It makes it hard to make switching activities when you can't see how a switch is aligned. That missing part has kept me from buying any route from Streamlines again.

    Bob Edwards

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by crstagg View Post
    What kind of consist errors? Syntax errors can usually be corrected by opening the consist in the ConBuilder consist editor then saving w/o changing anything.



    Yea, but there is an expectation of "hazard pay" and "full refund" for having to fire up that consist editor. Personality is 95% of their 'discontent' problem.

    They operate under the misconception that payware is an "investment" like Gold and Silver are, and just not an average consumable item like that china-made disposable desk lamp purchased at WalMart.
    Last edited by geepster775; 11-03-2012 at 10:43 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristian View Post
    I reinstalled it, but of course, that was not the problem.
    Did you try installing it in a unique location or directory, away from the normal trainset directory? Alot of prople with highly customized trainset directories do that anyway with every installation. It's the only way you can see what specifically gets added under the installation of this route. And then show a few screens of your consist folders and sample contents of the .con files? At this point, you arent doing enough on your end to prove the culprit is the installer or the bundle. You would get a more accurate response if you did everything possible to exclude other local customization issues of your PC from the problem. I don't know what evidence you have been handing to SLI in their support ticket system, but I haven't seen that evidence in any of your posts on both forums.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakpalms View Post
    Yes, I think when Streamlines called Seligman 1 as the Seligman Sub and only contained half of the tracks I feel that is a bit mischievious.

    It was clearly advertised as Needles to Seligman only. That they added the additional trackage to Winslow in version 1 for their own convenience when it came to producing the next phase had no mischievous intent about it. Absolutely, their method did not satisfy you. That's for sure. But its a stretch to call that mischievous.


    Quote Originally Posted by oakpalms View Post
    I realize that one can't have all the tracks that have existed chronologically over the history of a route, but at least you can still run trains over the tracks that were in place in any given era. We have a lot of steam engines and early diesels that could have been used very well on the Crookton to Ash Fork section of the route. That section of track was the original and historically important section of track. I think it is too bad Streamlines did not feel it worth their time and effort.

    The goal was to sell one specific era. It always has been. If you are a pre-1960s steam guy, a 1990s route won't meet your needs, so don't buy it. But they certainly are not obligated to cover a 50 year time span to satisfy a handful of people. A suggestion would be work with them on producing a specific steam era version of the route. Not sure how well that would sell among the millennials, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by oakpalms View Post
    I would also like to see Streamlines put switch machines and posts where turnouts are located on the Green River Route. It makes it hard to make switching activities when you can't see how a switch is aligned. That missing part has kept me from buying any route from Streamlines again.

    Details like the switch machines (your viewpoint) and the needless zig-zaggy track (my viewpoint) on Green River are legitimate issues, but they can't be the reason for your boycott. There is simply too much ranting, 30% legit, 70% bogus or otherwise well off the advertised intent of the route. I personally was disappointed to some degree with the last few routes, but in some respects, I understand that these routes went through their track laying phase way back before 2004, and utilized the MSTS design standards of that era. There are some sweeping curves on the Crookton cutoff that simply couldn't be modeled correctly without the larger radius pieces included with Xtracks, so instead we end up with a curve-straight-curve-straight curve design compromise. It wasn't until Scenic 2 that SLI embraced the use of Xtracks. So I buy these routes mostly for the excellent stock, biting my tongue on the pre-2004 design shortfalls that have been masked with mosaic and a sea of trackside vegetation, and expecting better on new routes in the future to be built with present day track-laying techniques.
    Last edited by geepster775; 11-04-2012 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by geepster775 View Post
    Yea, but there is an expectation of "hazard pay" and "full refund" for having to fire up that consist editor. Personality is 95% of their 'discontent' problem.

    They operate under the misconception that payware is an "investment" like Gold and Silver are, and just not an average consumable item like that china-made disposable desk lamp purchased at WalMart.
    I don't think anyone expects a full refund, but an apology and a customer service gesture would rightly be expected. Maybe a 10% off on next purchase kind of thing.

    And if a desktop lamp, regardless of where it is made, doesn't work when you bring it home, guess what? You're bringing it back to Wal-Mart for an exchange or refund. I don't understand this idea that it is permissible to have a product that doesn't work as it should and people should just accept it.

    I also don't understand this defense of SLI under any circumstance. You may not have had a problem, but there are others who have (self included) and all we expect is that the product be "right" and delivered free of major issues.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kknobl View Post
    I also don't understand this defense of SLI under any circumstance. You may not have had a problem, but there are others who have (self included) and all we expect is that the product be "right" and delivered free of major issues.


    The problem is, you have pretty much done yourself in with the WalMart return clerk. And you can't see that.

    Your very first post on the issue was adversarial, mentioning your "entitlement" to your "investment", and absent satisfaction a "refund".

    Then you faulted the beta testing standards, until it was pointed out that those with problems represent 0.002%.

    Then you complained about the extended download fiasco. May I suggest an IQ test as a pre-requisite to owning a credit card.

    Then you felt cheated by a $35 SLI route giving you only 3 activities. That $35 SLI route is available for $29.74 (15% off) EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK for those people intelligent enough squeeze that discount out of the shopping cart system, and its also discounted alot more than 15% on the dozen or so sales events in a year. I have to ask, do you feel equally cheated by that $30 SP pack you get from DW with their perpetual non-discount that also comes with the added 'benefit' of NO route?

    I totally agree with you that people should receive, in working order, what they pay for. But in this case, your problem could be solved by using a consist editor. But you won't engage that solution, out of (exaggerated) principle. Its like finding a loose screw on that desk lamp, and rather than tightening that screw yourself, you take it back to the store and quickly find yourself excommunicated at the return counter.

    And when people call you on your drama, you immediately backtrack into nicer language and label everyone as a "blind fanboy".

    In my view, you are lucky you are still permitted to stand at the return counter.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by geepster775 View Post
    Your very first post on the issue was adversarial, mentioning your "entitlement" to your "investment".

    Then you faulted the beta testing standards, until it was pointed out that those with problems represent 0.002%.

    Then you complained about the extended download fiasco. May I suggest an IQ test as a pre-requisite to owning a credit card.

    Then you felt cheated by a $35 SLI route giving you only 3 activities. That $35 SLI route is available for $29.74 (15% off) EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK for those people intelligent enough squeeze that discount out of the shopping cart system, and its also discounted alot more than 15% on the dozen or so sales events in a year. I have to ask, do you feel equally cheated by that $30 SP pack you get from DW with their perpetual non-discount that also comes with the added 'benefit' of NO route?

    And when people call you on your drama, you immediately backtrack into nicer language and label everyone as a "blind fanboy".

    In my view, you are lucky you are still permitted to stand at the return counter.
    Sir,

    In my view, YOU are a major instigator of this problem with this SLI vs. DW stuff.

    I feel I get more value from DW than I do SLI. You obviously feel opposite and that is your entitlement. You SLI fanboys demean anyone that dares criticize SLI and it gets ludicrous. Got news for you, SLI isn't perfect. DW isn't either, but again, I feel they make a better product.

    Perhaps you can't understand this basic notion, but satisfaction with a particular product is determined by whether or not it meets a certain expectation. I don't feel cheated by the TWO SP packs I have purchased (or any DW purchase I have made) because there was not an EXPECTATION of a ROUTE and ACTIVITIES that go with it. The key is that it met my EXPECTATION for that particular product. I do not EXPECT a route with every locomotive purchase. When I purchase a ROUTE, I have an EXPECTATION of it including more than 3 activities and having rolling stock that is free of syntax errors. In this case, the SLI product did NOT meet my expectation.

    I did not fault SLI for running sales, but I do not fault DW for not having any either. SLI is pursuing one business model, and DW another. It's their respective choice. However, I know that I can buy a DW product and not have to wonder if it will be 20% off the very next day. There is basically no way that you will feel "cheated" when you buy a DW product. Any purchase from SLI essentially becomes a gamble that it will not go on sale the next day.

    On a related note, and I could be wrong, but it seems that you are bothered that I am posting screenshots of DW equipment in an SLI forum based on your comment about the SP pack. I'm going to dig through the archives and dig up some more. But if it makes you feel any better I will make sure they're taken on an SLI route, maybe even Seligman 2.0.

    Maybe as an SLI loyalist you are entitled to that daily 15% discount that you mention. Perhaps you can share with everyone else? Even taking the EDS out of the equation, it is a MSRP $35 route. And your suggestion of an IQ prior to credit card use is just further proof that you are 1.) terribly immature 2.) bothered by the slightest of criticism of SLI 3.) Cannot accept that people may not be blindly loyal to SLI and have to resort to demeaning people who are not hamstrung by such loyalty and who are not afraid to make their dissatisfaction known. Get over it dude. Not everyone is going to think SLI is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    SLI makes NO effort at customer satisfaction, as exemplified by the number of people who have posted of issues and received no response. We do NOT expect a refund, but again, a customer service gesture would be appreciated. I do not see what is WRONG or CRIMINAL about providing a vendor feedback, being dissatisfied with a particular product, or stating case for said dissatisfaction. If my standards are high, well so be it. I wish yours were as well. SLI, in the case of ATSF Seligman 2.0, did not meet my expectations, pure and simple. If you work for SLI, and you're going to be in a customer driven business, you need to be able to deal with occasional dissatisfaction. Further point on the semantics of your post:

    1.) No one acknowledged that something may have slipped through beta testing. Instead it was brushed off as an isolated incident. If it isn't just say so, apologize for the inconvenience, and we all move on.
    2.) All my major issues were brought up in ONE SINGLE post. Not multiple posts as the semantics of your posting would indicate. The only thing that was brought up in a subsequent post was the EDS, for which I ADMITTED IT WAS MY FAULT!!
    3.) Any posts subsequent to the original were made because I either had to defend my position or clarify it/explain it further. The fundamental complaints and positions that I had taken in the original posting stood. None were walked back. But because of attitudes like yours, it seems that I have to explain that I had expectations that were not met, why they were not met, and to define what SLI might consider in the future in order to further improve upon their product and/or customer service.
    Last edited by kknobl; 11-04-2012 at 01:16 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kknobl View Post
    Sir,

    In my view, YOU are a major instigator of this problem with this SLI vs. DW stuff.



    Nah, Like you, I buy from both. I like'em all, and I am an equal opportunity critic.

    Removing the company names from the debate, because we don't need another 6 pages of conspiracy, I was just curious how you justify your sense of being "cheated" when you are on the receiving end of rolling stock AND a route, while not feeling cheated when just getting rolling stock from another vendor for roughly the same price.

    But you have answered my question. You clearly feel more cheated by the vendor who offers occasional discounts than the vendor who doesn't discount at all. You apparently place a premium on the "certainty" of never having buyers remorse that goes with buying products on impulse outside of a sale cycle. Joe's 25% "patience discount" is your 25% "impulse tax". I get it. And who wants to pay any "tax", right?

    And you have also explained your view that getting equipment-only is more "assuring" to you than getting equipment AND a route for the same price. At least you don't have to worry about the pesky problem of determining the "value" of the activities that really cost you nothing more, and that go with the route that pretty much cost you nothing more.

    Smart move.

    I get it now.
    Last edited by geepster775; 11-04-2012 at 02:23 AM.

  10. #20
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    The solution here seems simple.

    SLI, when you release a route for say $35, that includes 4 loco shapes, and 10 wagons, also release it as 4 loco packs at $15 each and remove all weathering, and release 10 wagon packs at between say $6 and $12 a shape. this should keep people happy. Also don't forget to charge for a separate loco pack if it has a different road name.

    Meanwhile, I'll just buy the route pack and continue to make a separate install and enjoy myself when I get a chance to run it.

    Steve

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