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Thread: Max authorized speeds on Needles

  1. #1

    Default Max authorized speeds on Needles

    Question: How do I interpret the speed signs/timetable speed chart?

    For QUALIFIED intermodal trains, what would the max authorized speed be, given
    the following scenarios:

    79 pax/55 frt

    60 pax/50 frt

    For the first - can intermodal go 70, or limited to 55?
    For the second, can intermodal go 60, or limited to 50?

    I know this topic has been discussed, but the discussion itself seemed to go back and
    forth and was very confusing to follow.

    A speed board showing 90/70 is very clear to me - max intermodal = 70.

    Thanks!

  2. #2

    Default

    The indicated freight speed is the MAX speed for any freight train, intermodal or otherwise. All you need to do to understand is to look at the curvature in each of the speed zones. The laws of physics apply to IM's as well as they do to manifests.

  3. #3

    Default

    Thanks. This was my hunch. Something I had read on another thread, however, made a contrary claim, and it got me thinking...

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffhalv View Post
    Question: How do I interpret the speed signs/timetable speed chart?

    For QUALIFIED intermodal trains, what would the max authorized speed be, given
    the following scenarios:

    79 pax/55 frt

    60 pax/50 frt

    For the first - can intermodal go 70, or limited to 55?
    For the second, can intermodal go 60, or limited to 50?

    I know this topic has been discussed, but the discussion itself seemed to go back and
    forth and was very confusing to follow.

    A speed board showing 90/70 is very clear to me - max intermodal = 70.

    Thanks!
    #1 intermodal is 55 mph (the max speed for freight trains in that permanent speed restriction).

    #2 intermodal is 50 mph (the max speed for freight trains in that permanent speed restriction).

    66

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Posts
    230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffhalv View Post
    A speed board showing 90/70 is very clear to me - max intermodal = 70.
    From what I know the maximum speed for freight in Needles is 55 mph; and from what I've heard, there is no 90/70 speed sign in the real RR (this is a mistake in Run8). The max speeds in Needles as per BNSF TT rule 1(A) are 90/55, 79/55 and 79/45.
    Quote Originally Posted by goneon66 View Post
    #1 intermodal is 55 mph (the max speed for freight trains in that permanent speed restriction).
    66, why are saying the 79/55 is a permanent speed restriction, if it's listed in the rule 1(A) Maximum-Speed?
    In that rule there are sections with 90/55 and 79/55 listed as max speed for the whole subdivison except in Main 2 MP 685.8 to MP 671.4 in which max speed is 79/45.
    In the same rule: "Unless otherwise restricted, the maximum speed for freight trains is 70 MPH (except MP 685.8 to MP 671.4) provided:"
    Why, in Needles Sub TT, in the exceptions for max 70 MPH is included only the section with 79/45, but not the sections with 79/55?
    Permanent speed restrictions are not those listed in rule "1(B) Speed-Permanent Restrictions"?
    It's not clear enough to me yet, and I would like to understand it better.

    Cheers,
    Doc.
    Last edited by MachinistBrazil; 07-23-2013 at 07:28 PM.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBrazil View Post
    From what I know the maximum speed for freight in Needles is 55 mph; and from what I've heard, there is no 90/70 speed sign in the real RR (this is a mistake in Run8). The max speeds in Needles as per BNSF TT rule 1(A) are 90/55, 79/55 and 79/45.
    66, why are saying the 79/55 is a permanent speed restriction, if it's listed in the rule 1(A) Maximum-Speed?
    In that rule there are sections with 90/55 and 79/55 listed as max speed for the whole subdivison except in Main 2 MP 685.8 to MP 671.4 in which max speed is 79/45.
    In the same rule: "Unless otherwise restricted, the maximum speed for freight trains is 70 MPH (except MP 685.8 to MP 671.4) provided:"
    Why, in Needles Sub TT, in the exceptions for max 70 MPH is included only the section with 79/45, but not the sections with 79/55?
    Permanent speed restrictions are not those listed in rule "1(B) Speed-Permanent Restrictions"?
    It's not clear enough to me yet, and I would like to understand it better.

    Cheers,
    Doc.
    the max authorized track speed for the needles sub is 90 mph for passenger and 70 mph for freight (i.e. for freight trains that qualify for 70mph like intermodal trains).

    any speeds indicating less than maximum authorized track speed are posted on speed boards as PERMANENT SPEED RESTRICTIONS, meaning they don't go away and are not temporary. permanent speed restrictions are territory specific and related to the physical characteristics of the subdivision (usually curves and grades).

    of all of the rules u quoted, you forgot to look up g.c.o.r. rule 5.5.

    if u want, we can talk about it on teamspeak if u want further info........

    66

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada.
    Posts
    3,206

    Default

    Is there a restriction on light power? Thought I heard 30 one time, but it could be maximum authorized track speed for all I know.

    There are a few speed restriction signs missing EB on Needles, but from what I've heard they are pretty close. What's missing is the green signs on both routes to resume max authorized speed.

    Mojave has a fair share of strange speed signs. 25 is actually 23 on the grade, and the 70 zones for freight (according to BNSF employee ) for Kern to Sandcut, and the Teh to Monolith (can't recall the actual MP but it matches the 70/55 sign there). The data also matches the UP fog charts (though this is unofficial). I don't believe I have a copy of the official timetable.

    Thanks

    Sean

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Posts
    230

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    Thank you 66,

    In DAMS in my signature you have my TS3 server IP and psw, I usually let it up to talk with friends. I'll be around in there on tonight, and I will be glad to talk with you (and learn from you) if you have a time for it. This subject by text is confusing me, better talk I guess.

    Cheers,
    Doc.

  9. #9

    Default

    Per BNSF TT May 4, 2013 Needles Sub:

    90/70 MP 648.9-672.4
    90/70 MP 711.3-737.3

    Makes sense, since these are very long tangent sections.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada.
    Posts
    3,206

    Default

    You'll find a few typos on Needles as well (though I find it much more accurate than Mojave). In that example above (which is correct) EB is showing 90/55 when it should read 90/70 at MP 737.3. I forget the other ones but there are a few typos and/or signs not even posted. A good guide is Nolatron's Run8 maps. He has substituted the timetable speed for some of the errors.

    As far as specifics in if your train qualifies for that speed that is another whole ball of wax outlined in the ETT.

    I'm probably going to do a condensed TT chart like I did for Mojave. Got too much programming going on lately and I'm falling behind.

    Thanks

    Sean

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