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Thread: SP Oil Can Stuck At Cliff Siding

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Forest Hills, NY
    Posts
    915

    Post SP Oil Can Stuck At Cliff Siding

    I'm trying to move train MPK SP BKDOU 1 uphill off the Cliff siding.

    Has anybody been able to accomplish this? I'm beginning to think more power is needed.

    Question: At what point is the parking brake released? I'm trying to do this "real-world" so I'm taking off the parking brake right away. I have the train brake on and the independent brake on.

    Also, should the DPU fence be up, and should the rear units be at a higher notch than the front units?

    Thanks,

    Rob

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Metro Vancouver
    Posts
    3,110

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForestHIllsRob View Post
    I'm trying to move train MPK SP BKDOU 1 uphill off the Cliff siding.

    Has anybody been able to accomplish this? I'm beginning to think more power is needed.

    Question: At what point is the parking brake released? I'm trying to do this "real-world" so I'm taking off the parking brake right away. I have the train brake on and the independent brake on.

    Also, should the DPU fence be up, and should the rear units be at a higher notch than the front units?

    Thanks,

    Rob

    Rob getting that oil train moving can be accomplished but with great paitence on the operators part.Start with a full Indy and train brakes on and knock off the parking brake.Notch up the remotes and apply sand.Get the T/E pushing then relase train brake keeping full indy and wait for say 15 secs then take H/E pwr to say notch 4 or 5 watching your AMPS and accelorometer,and slowly release indy till you start moving forward.I usually keep about 3lbs on the idny to stop wheelslip and you'll get moving but remember not to get in a hurry and let her come to you.It's a challenge but it is do able.
    Work Safe play hard

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    492

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    I believe I have done this one before. Yes, put the fence up and shove hard with the DPU's and don't take the lead units above notch 4 when starting out or you'll break a knuckle. I wouldn't go all the way to notch 8 with the DPU's right away but roll them up to notch 4 before releasing the brakes and then up to notch 8. Make sure to use sand. It's a tough move but be patient and let the traction motors work. Some times it seems like you are not going to move but after a few moments you will start moving.
    Doug B.
    Eugene, Oregon, USA - Pacific Standard Time ( - 8:00 UTC )
    3.4 ghz Intel i7-3770 quad core processor, 8 gigs RAM, 2 gig AMD Radeon HD 7850

  4. #4

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    That's what i would do to dpu to push the train on a grade. Helps to prevent from braking the coupler.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Posts
    230

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    If you use correctly the fence this train is quite easy to depart at Cliff (or any grade like that). In Run8 (it's not the real thing) with 3 engines pulling from the head end you can go up to 1500Amps safe (pay attention to the amperage, instead of the throttle notch). Pushing from the rear end you can go up to N8 with 2 engines (the usual for mid and rear DPU consists) flawlessly.
    That said apply min reduction in Auto Brake and full in Indy. Fence B and C together, notch A, B and C up to 4. Release Auto Brake, and apply sander. When BP reaches 88 put N5 in B+C, when BP reachess 90 put N6 on B+C and release gradually Indy. When you start to move set B+C to N7 and A to N5 in this order. When amperage goes below 1300 in front end put N8 on B+C and N6 on A. When amps in front is less then 1300 set N7, and again when below 1300 to N8. It takes one minute to reach 14MPH and more half minute to 15 MPH (the cruise speed).
    I have this train saved everywhere on mountain and when a new upgrade comes out I always test it at Rowen, Cliff and Woodford to check if Run8 physics has changed, and so far is still easy to depart on grades, having only 3 engines on the head end, 2 in cut-in consist and a single DPU in the rear end. Give it a try.

    Cheers,
    Doc.
    Last edited by MachinistBrazil; 08-04-2013 at 09:32 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Forest Hills, NY
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    Thanks for all the help. This is really a challenge.

    I was able to get the train moving by isolating unit 4 up front. I didn't go above notch 5 on the front, and went to notch 6 on the back. This gave me a speed of about 7 mph into Woodford siding.

    I'm going to also try leaving Cliff using the information above.

    Question - When a unit is isolated, at what point should power be restored? In a real world situation, does a crew member ride in the isolated unit to restore power?

    Thanks,

    Robert

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
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    Oooops... I was talking about UP UBKDO. When you said 4th unit isolated only then I noticed you are talking about MrBalls SP trains, I don't have them installed, however the procedure I mentioned is the same, except that for 4 engines in the front end the amperage is limited to 1300 (you can notch up whenever it's is below 1000 in this case).

    Keep CouplerStrainLBS no higher than 350,000-360,000; and locking correctly FPS (usually 30, or 20 depending on your rig specs) also helps physics calcs therefore prevents breaking knuckles.

    Doc.
    Last edited by MachinistBrazil; 08-04-2013 at 12:40 AM.

  8. #8

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    You should not isolate any locomotives. You will need them all to get up the hill!

    Assuming the initial setup is 6 - 8 lbs of trains brake + loco brakes to hold the train ... when you release the loco brakes use about 2 notches to hold the train:


    Release the train brakes and notch up to N4. This will just hold the train steady as the brakes release:


    With 4 locos on the head end you cannot go above N4 without breaking a coupler unless you add some loco brakes to reduce the torque at the wheels. However, since this train has DPUs, use them to push harder at the rear, as everyone has mentioned. Anytime any loco goes above 1200 amps you also need to add sand:


    Since you want to keep the head end amps below about 1250 with 4 headend locos, you need to wait until the headend amps drops below about 1000 - 1050 before notching up to N5:


    Keep doing this, pushing harder on the rear and letting the head end amps drop so that when you notch up you stay below 1200 - 1250 amps:


    When the rear reaches N8 it won't be possible to push any harder, so eventually the speed will stabilize with the headend amps too high to allow you to notch up without breaking a coupler:


    You can either settle for this speed all the way to the summit, or you can notch up to N8 at the head end and add a little loco brakes to reduce the torque at the wheels:


    Now slowly reduce the loco brakes as the speed increases and the amps drop:


    When you get below 1200 amps you can kill the sand:

  9. #9

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    With head end power only, as with some of the intermodal trains, a start from a stop on the hill may need a unit isolated, so you can go higher on the amperage while keeping the train together. The pics above are exactly how to get a heavy train with DPU's going. A trick I have used similar to the brakes above is to rock the throttle...when the amperage goes down enough, add a notch and watch the amps, back off before it gets too high. In some places, particularly between NE Woodford and the Walong tunnel, I have used this technique to add a notch or even two permanently and get the speed back up at least closer to 20.
    Last edited by flarrfan2; 08-04-2013 at 10:27 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
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    In the first days of Run 8 (currently the physics are much better) the use of Indy was (still is) a good trick to control the Coupler Strain forces. As a side note the yellow digits on BC (since 07-13 upgrade) means that you have exceed 3 psi over 10 MPH (in real engine it would make an alarm to go off, for now we have the yellow to call your attention about it).
    Another trick, weird for Americans but possible here in Brazil due to a device we developed, is split a head end set of 5 engines in two DPU's sets (3+2 or 2+3), it also allows intermediate (and overall) power between notches.
    In fact, as per BNSF and UP books, you cannot run with 5 ES44DC in the front end only on the steepest grades of Mojave, it's always a smart option (a rule in BNSF before depart at say Bakersfield, or Barstow when crews change) add helper(s) or simply distribute power accordingly (move two engines of the head end to the rear end), with the permission of DS: it takes up to most 10 minutes, whilst fix the PCS Open thingy may take much more time (not counting the headache, and sometimes the shame, that it causes ).
    What Kent said about rocking the throttle emphasizes that keep the eyes peeled on amperage (and I use to do the same on the coupler strain value as well) is much more important than think in which throttle notch you are (it's relative), so that I never care about the notch I'm using (or should be used, it's meanless) the focus goes exclusively to the "amperage" and the "in-train" forces limits, always.
    Last edited by MachinistBrazil; 09-18-2013 at 10:40 AM.

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