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Thread: New Canadian route to be released soon - Oakfield Subdivision Toronto.

  1. #31
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    Dovetail Games the company that just keeps on sucking people in with the power of curiosity.
    In the back of my mind I will tell myself it looks so much better than the last version and it's got routes that interest me so it must be good. I will convince myself that this version will answer all my train simming needs and I won't fall for Dovetails well established bad business practice of releasing incomplete routes and train sets knowing that I may have to buy another DLC add on to complete that route. Yep! I'm Curious and you know what they say about curiosity - "Curiosity killed the wallet" - but I just can't resist .
    OH Hell here we go again!. NO WAIT, I got more common sense than that, I won't fall that trap again, Get me the hell out of here. PHEW that was close - back to my favorite trainsimulator RUN8 for now .

    James

  2. #32
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    OK I was on a live stream looking at this a bit more and apparently TSW as come a lot further than I realised if I understand correctly.

    So there are no editors yet like they said they wanted because of Unreal etc. But I'm hearing the free roam activities and the AI are very powerful.

    So if I was to get TSW working, AI's would spawn at either some kind of schedule or random events and they can be brought into yards to switch? Then you as the player can not only run in the yards but operate out of the yards, get signals and switches, and run the mainlines as well?

    If this is the case then TSW has come much further than I suspected. Last I seen was some guy was trapped in the big yard with TSW heavy haul can can only run from one end to the other without ever making it out on the mainline.

    If someone can share their experience or bring me up to speed I'd appreciate it. If so this route is actually perfect for such an operation.

    Thanks

    Sean

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurvivorSean View Post
    OK I was on a live stream looking at this a bit more and apparently TSW as come a lot further than I realised if I understand correctly.

    So there are no editors yet like they said they wanted because of Unreal etc. But I'm hearing the free roam activities and the AI are very powerful.

    So if I was to get TSW working, AI's would spawn at either some kind of schedule or random events and they can be brought into yards to switch? Then you as the player can not only run in the yards but operate out of the yards, get signals and switches, and run the mainlines as well?

    If this is the case then TSW has come much further than I suspected. Last I seen was some guy was trapped in the big yard with TSW heavy haul can can only run from one end to the other without ever making it out on the mainline.

    Sean
    From a person who owns both Run8 and TSW...............Free Roam activites? AI????? Sean I've been watching your vids since RTSv1
    That said if you want to be disappointed and frustrated buy TSW.
    other then "looking nice" that's where it ends for ANY type of "operations" YOU may be thinking of-
    -There is no activity/scenario editor.
    -There is no consist editor/TMU
    -Canned scenarios only
    -free roam is use what ever consists may be in yard,which won't be much so as to keep frame rate acceptable. no way to align switches to get on main line
    -other then a coal tipple, there are no interactive industries
    -No control over anything AI, BTW AI does not deliver manifest trains to the yards for local industries
    -Saving in free roam is dicey at best- saving in any aspect of this game is questionable
    - there is no difference between loaded and unloaded cars- EX -weight/physics/braking- No choice between loaded and unloaded cars either
    -there are no anglecocks or worries about going into ptc. can't even get ptc when when hitting eot dump
    -no working distance counter, But I can turn the fan on in the cab so that's important
    -"actual" physics and braking /slack action do not exist- there are no broken knuckles
    -while the switchology and opening and closing of door animations are gr8 on engines,other then a canned scenario that includes a cold start-you don't have a reason to use these features, don't even bother setting up a free roam save from a cold start as you will learn first hand the word frustration.
    -I have had TSW since it came out a couple YEARS ago, and the devs still haven't fixed bugs that have been brought to their attention
    since it came out, do yourself a favor and RESEARCH THIS b-4 you buy
    -TSW is marketed for console users and is an arcade game- not an open world simulation- and this is where it shines so if you want to run
    preset services ie driving train "xxx" to destination "yyy" in your choice of weather and time on this new 20mi or so route.
    -This was one of my personal favs and would be remiss if I did not share. On the cumberland route there is an NON-operational hump yard in which there is a scenario that has you take cuts from the bowl and push them up over the hump to build a train in the receiving yard.
    -Raildriver is not supported by tsw
    -No multiplayer
    -No dispatch panel- albeit you may be able to align some switches via the map display you will not be able to change anything that the AI are running on-

    So in summary, If your Feeling Run8 is lacking some vision and has an abundance of short-commings then By all Means
    Climb aboard the TSW Train, Powered by Simugraph
    For your reading enjoyment-https://forums.dovetailgames.com/forums/trainsimworld/

  4. #34

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    I concur with this ^

    Sean, you have been "spoiled" by the operational detail that Run8 gives you. TSW doesn't even come close to that. In fact it's arguable it has even less operational ability and options than TS2020 does (although the locomotive "details" are way above anything else on the market.)

    The fact of the matter is there is still kind of a gaping hole where a good American-based train sim that cover all the bases should be. (Yes I like Run8 but it has a shortcoming for everything it excels at.)

    While I'm at it, I'll tell you everything TSW *does* allow you to do, just to be perfectly clear:

    - run scripted scenarios (a very, very limited number of them... like 5 per route and 3 per loco DLC) that have absolutely no dynamic/random elements

    - run "service" mode which is essentially a number of scripted scenarios that take place in a 24h period. The "run this train from A to B" ones have no player flexibility, and the switching ones always involve the exact same cars and moves. You can change the weather for these.

    - aaand... that's it. I'm not being dramatic, that is ALL there is to do.
    Last edited by plethaus21; 02-16-2020 at 10:45 AM.

  5. #35
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    Yeah I'm learning this the hard way. Something last night lead me to believe that things may have got better, but I've been out of the TSW loop for a long time. To Run8's credit it's obviously still the best train simulator out there. I was willing to live with a bit less physics for repeat playability but I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

    What is crazy about this is any time I do a live stream I get lots of people telling me how great TSW is. Last night I did one on Oakville and to be honest I thought why couldn't Run8 do a nice small route like this. Then I was lead down a path that apparently there had been new updates and they can do all kinds of things. I guess nothing has changed.

    Until someone can show me anything has changed for the better, I'll stay away from the eye candy. I'll be happy to watch someone else on YouTube like I am right now operating a train Because once I've seen it and give it a thumbs up I'll not want to to the same thing again.

    As far as the future goes, even if they ever do get these "editors" TSW has promised for ages I think they are missing the boat. MSTS I wrote lots of activities and it's like reading your own novel. Activities start and end, but there is really no sense of continuing. This is where I admire what Run8 has done because not just a good train simulator, but a fairly decent (though not the best) railroad simulator. FYM probably does the whole car forwarding thing the best but it's 2D and you need to spend more time to get more important roles or you can't keep up.

    Like you said and I agree there is a huge hole missing in the train simulators. You've got the extremes of TSW's great eye candy, Run8's physics, MP, Mainline AI, and world saves. In between is missing the single player or small group of operating a railroad as real as it gets with proper AI scripting and decision making. I know I think Trainz has good AI dispatching but misses on other things.

    Basically a small enough area like Oakville with a few trains that have a purpose mixed in with some commuter and passenger runs could do wonders for the right sim. We've seen how AI trains in Run8 obey signals. I understand that Trainz has smart self dispatching. Most of these through trains simply drop off a head end set of cars and then picks up another (so the switching isn't too involved). As for the actual switchers yes this is more involved but scripting how to switch certain industries with random variables put into play could make a switcher very dynamic. In fact I'll say this what I did see on TSW where a train was setting off cars at least that part was impressive.

    Anyways thanks for the heads up on this guys, it's very much appreciated. I'll wait until there is some real news that happens in TSW before considering to do anything in it.

    Thanks

    Sean

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by SurvivorSean View Post
    In between is missing the single player or small group of operating a railroad as real as it gets with proper AI scripting and decision making. I know I think Trainz has good AI dispatching but misses on other things.

    Basically a small enough area like Oakville with a few trains that have a purpose mixed in with some commuter and passenger runs could do wonders for the right sim.
    I totally agree Sean, I think this is where some developer could swoop in with the right areas of focus and fill in the "gap" I talked about. Focus on one route that provides 1) mainline freight running, 2) switching, 3) passenger operations. Don't get hung up on following a prototypical route down to every building and siding (unless you have access to data and tools that make building to the prototype very easy.) Instead focus on the train simulation aspects (brakes, power delivery, etc), route simulation aspects (signalling, AI, and weather) and "economy" simulation aspects (creating jobs for players to do that actually mean something in the sim like servicing industries or moving passengers.)

    There is a sim available on Steam called "Derail Valley" which is hitting a lot of those marks. It's one route that meanders through a valley, servicing a bunch of different industries. Jobs are dynamic and the player receives money for completing them, which can be used to buy stuff like a license to run longer trains. It's mostly fantasy though, the trains and cars are similar to real ones but not exactly the same, the route is not real, but the simulation is actually pretty solid. It doesn't have multiplayer yet, but it's the first game/sim that "caught on" to the idea I described above.

    Basically if someone would take that exact same concept and apply it with American stuff (and probably with a more prototypical approach where possible) we'd be in heaven. Well, I would at least. :P

  7. #37
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    Definitely lots of eye candy. It is unfortunate that for all the time TSW has been around, very little has been done to improve the operations of train movement.
    https://youtu.be/sTZVQIEoaL4
    Interested in all Train-Sims

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by plethaus21

    Sean, you have been "spoiled" by the operational detail that Run8 gives you. TSW doesn't even come close to that. In fact it's arguable it has even less operational ability and options than TS2020 does (although the locomotive "details" are way above anything else on the market.)

    - run scripted scenarios (a very, very limited number of them... like 5 per route and 3 per loco DLC) that have absolutely no dynamic/random elements
    Yes that pretty much sums up TSW as a package, it looks better and considering the eye candy it performs better than TS2018-20 , the interaction with the locomotive is impressive, but the depth of game play has actually gone backwards.
    It still is and probably always will be a program tied to scripted scenarios in world that will never offer you the freedom of movement and operational possibility's that Run8 offers. It says a lot about a program when the depth of game play for the majority is judged by the distance of the Route and not the variety of operational possibility's that a real railroad does.

    The current state of train sims is frustrating for some of us with the uncertainty of Run8 V3 and its release date and will the developers release a route that is manageable for single players or small mulit-player groups.

    There is Diesel Railcar Simulator which is showing good signs of development with very impressive physics, Interesting timetable scenarios, world editor and a developer who listens and interacts with his customers and is open to ideas, but it is virtually a one man show resulting in very slow development of the sim. I have burnt my wallet with TS2016-18 and that toy train simulator they call Trainz and all can say is never again I have learnt my lesson.


    I'm at the stage where single player is still okay, but perhaps it is time to consider getting involved in mulit-player operations of some sought for Run8 and expanding my interests with a small group. I have several projects to contribute to the Run8 thread this year, that hopefully will spark some interest and conversations.

    Hang in there Sean and stay confident and keep an eye on the Run8 Forum .

    Cheers

    James

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by plethaus21 View Post
    I concur with this ^
    Sean, you have been "spoiled" by the operational detail that Run8 gives you. TSW doesn't even come close to that. In fact it's arguable it has even less operational ability and options than TS2020 does (although the locomotive "details" are way above anything else on the market.)
    The fact of the matter is there is still kind of a gaping hole where a good American-based train sim that cover all the bases should be. (Yes I like Run8 but it has a shortcoming for everything it excels at.)
    While I'm at it, I'll tell you everything TSW *does* allow you to do, just to be perfectly clear:
    - run scripted scenarios (a very, very limited number of them... like 5 per route and 3 per loco DLC) that have absolutely no dynamic/random elements - run "service" mode which is essentially a number of scripted scenarios that take place in a 24h period. The "run this train from A to B" ones have no player flexibility, and the switching ones always involve the exact same cars and moves. You can change the weather for these. - aaand... that's it. I'm not being dramatic, that is ALL there is to do.
    A brilliant post, and pretty much sums up what so many of us have been saying for years, I personally have been slaughtered across various forums for uttering such condemnation, not only has their distinct lack of any railway experience or knowledgre been so acute, but, as ex-Electronic Arts staff from the outset I don't think they ever considered having any railway operational nous as being a required prerequisite, it's now just a little sandbox game for the XBox-ers, or, a Playstation or a PC. Folks keep saying well, you don't have to pay for anything, however, to not do so would have seen DTG go bust ages ago, even after about 7 years now I'm sure the vast majority of us still hold eternal hope that something better waits just around the corner for all us customers, but, several have now quit for pastures new, and I doubt if DTG will ever deliver to us what we all wanted, a proper train simulator.

    Cheerz. Steve.
    i5 4690 3.5 GHz Quad Core CPU, Gigabyte Z97-HD3, 16GB RAM, nVidia GTX1060 6GB, WIN 7 PRO 64-bit.

  10. #40
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    Really nothing more to add then what has already been said. Derail Valley is cute but a long way from what I'm looking for (I know they are fairly young still). As much as I love eye candy I'm not very artistic when it comes to development. Perhaps I need to focus at what I'm good or capable at and see what I can come up with.

    Thanks for the information everyone.

    Sean

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