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Thread: Why is there no modern simulator that offers "best of both worlds"?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagoon View Post
    (raises hand)...I do, sir! I do!

    Do you also remember "Black 5", Vern? It seemed promising from the outset, but died in the arse pretty quickly.
    One of several promising candidates that never saw the light of day. It wasn’t really until Trainmaster 4 that the mould was broken, then as we know Bob Leilich’s timing couldn’t have been worse with the announcement of MSTS.
    Vern.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernWarrior View Post
    ....as we know Bob Leilich’s timing couldn’t have been worse with the announcement of MSTS.
    Yeah, that was pretty tough for him.
    You know, I still have that installed on my old Windows XP laptop.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawmut View Post
    That's what OR is like for most folks. The freaking manual for the stable 1.4 version is 330 pages long, for pete's sake! With that kind of choice and/or having a sim they just download from Steam and then off they go, what do you think they are going to do?

    That is humorous on the surface that the manual is 330 pages! And it is important that every new feature be adequately documented for the "mechanics" among us. But another way to look at it is "Wow, there are 330 pages covering new features that discuss what OR can do that MSTS couldn't do". Let that sink in for those still trying to walk the tightrope and produce add-on product that is supposedly still workable in both platforms. My guess is they don't know whats in those 330 pages themselves, or don't want to know, or don't have time left on the planet to care.

    I think we are getting pretty close to a Steam-like turnkey solution, minus the "Steam issues", for new North American users to Open Rails. The key is marketing one approach of getting the application from the Open Rails website and then bring your credit card and buy a bunch of payware routes from one source specifically designed to be segregated from MSTS. One-click installers handle everything, including file structures, routes, rolling stock and track systems. Those payware route installers even provide PDF style "quick drive user guides" covering basic minimum OR settings (including graphics!), and they are not 330 pages long. Said vendor also offers their own version of a one click download installation of the TSRE Consist editor.

    Keep trainsim.com and all its historical MSTS methods, theologians, assets and "free stuff" far, far, far away from those new users. The minute they land at Trainsim.com and start poking around, that is like throwing that 330 page manual in those newbie's faces, a tragedy of complications that never had to be.

    It is astounding that there is only one North American vendor providing turn-key experiences and offering enough made-for-OR-only routes that provide adequate diversity. (Scenic, Seligman, Ruel, Mullan, soon-to-be Shasta, LaGrande, Sand Patch and Kingston).

    There is one other vendor who is digging deep into the new physics, and it shows with each new release, but their products remain out of touch with turn-key noobs. I don't need 100 car numbers for one coal car, or 14 shape files offering a buffet of personal choice of hi-shine or lo-shine lighting effects, roof fins or not, multiple steel truck designs for one boxcar, multiple WAG file choices for differing car weights that gross-out or cube-out, or one basic car weathering pattern minus car numbers that are applied by freight animation. This is not turn-key useable material by a longshot. A confusing strategy of new car shapes and physics mixed with trying to revive the oldest content from the MSTS disks and Trainsim.com library that noobs should stay away from.

    Other new generation routes like Bala and Sherman can be summed up as missed opportunities, still linking things physically built into the route with the structural needs of MSTS. As a result, those routes have trouble 'negotiating' some of those new improvements that have been outlined in 330 pages.

  4. #24
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    Supply vs demand, innovation, level playing field, pricing to include everyone vs income to sustain a small niche. It's great that OR is a project done by the community, but don't forget OR would be nothing without MSTS. MSTS was created as a payware product that produced some of the greatest add ons both pay and free on any other sim period. Trainz has done a fair job but from what I understand their constant evolution pisses off old timers, and has new guys who come in scratching their head asking what is your problem? Obviously they are both right. That is the kind of innovation that is produced out of lack of backward compatibility. OR has been able to use that backward compatibility to build their community and keep MSTS relevant. Hopefully OR will continue to evolve but when you anchor it to backward compatibility you limit or restrict your innovative ability to be the best you can be. Not to mention no monetary investment into OR means your relying on the goodness and kindness of the entrie community. If it gets old since there is no investment and supply is high people might find something else that catches their eye.

    I have no regrets for supporting Run8 as long as I did, nor do I have any regrets moving on 2 years ago. As much as they listen to people they decided to only listen to what they liked, and ignored what they didn't. That is their problem not mine. If your happy with it good for you. Enjoy V3 when it arrives.

    For me and not for many here RAILROADS Online has the spirit of Run8, and the passion of a small team that is young and is interactive with their entire community. They are not afraid of criticisim. Hell if they're still on the cespool called Steam you know they are going to have plenty of kids pissing their corn flakes at every little thing missing. I'll stick with the innvators with a price tag and show them a little love with my wallet. Hopefully others will do the same. Being able to make money off of your hobby is a big incentive. For me I don't make a cent but I have an investment. My channel is also paying it's own divedents rising closer to 1000 subscribers. It will never pay the bills, but that isn't what motivates me. My passion motivates me and right now I'm very passionate.

    Please continue to enjoy what makes you passionate whatever that may be.

    Thanks

    Sean

  5. #25
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    Trainz has done a fair job but from what I understand their constant evolution pisses off old timers, and has new guys who come in scratching their head asking what is your problem? Obviously they are both right. That is the kind of innovation that is produced out of lack of backward compatibility.
    As I mentioned earlier, Trainz has got into a real pickle at present. SP4 has broken so much N3V had to concede and put the old SP3 installer back on the MyTrainz page for users to download and revert. Mind then even SP3 has issues. It sounds from posts on the N3V forum that SP4 has induced the hardware melting phenomenon that we saw with the first release of TANE. They do have a real conflict of interests, on the one hand refusing to move forward and on the other breaking the backward compatibility anyway! For the first time in several years I have no plans to renew my Download Station FCT when it expires in a couple of weeks.
    Vern.

  6. #26
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    Well despite 2019 working for me I lost interest. Again this is just my experience I was really into it. The deal breaker for me was I'm too much of a perfectionist when it comes to developing a prototype. I could never figure out the grade at Port Robinson Yard and because that is monitored it was one place I couldn't walk without getting into trouble. So it slowly became a chore and that was when I gave up.

    With RO I found an entire new community that I didn't know existed. It's prdecesseor American Railroads had a strong following. Not sure why it missed my radar, or didn't show up on the front page's "heard over the wire". I'm sure it may have been mentioned somewhere on this forum once beore, and I'm not a steam guy by any means let alone narrow gauge.

    But RO is mostly freelance though based on prototype and it's operations. For now the industries are solid with the map, but everything after that is your choice. Suddenly I have a map that I have to find a way and constantly evolve to the operations that I run. Yes we are now faced with a crew shortage, but we can still run with a few loyal users.

    RTS was reborn once I first used it as the world name and server. Many people run their world in so many various ways. Some buy every engine, and others have mammoth track arrangements. I just made it to the coal mine, and still have ironworks, refinery, and oil fields in the south to connect to. The sysem I once had for car forwarding is reborn as well yet I only planted the seed. In fact one of my RTS members is developing it for the freight depot to liven up demand and mix things up a bit. Again it's not for everyone and that is cool. But it's seriously all I care about in train sims now.

    So to swing this back to the OP as I don't want to get anyone's thongs all messed up trains in general is such a vast history and hobby to go with it. For example I enjoy some of the sci fi series yet as a sci fi fan who really doesn't care too much for anything new coming out Star Trek and Star Wars are iconic though I liked Stargate & others I probably forget (yes I know I said OP bear with me this is just an example). Star Trek franchise for video games is in depth but it gets boring even with MP. Star Wars has something Battleground or battlefront II whatever I have that my son enjoys playing to this day and I love watching. However there isn't much more depth to it you fight in combat and try to blow crap up!

    With this niche even 70's has it's own modeling era as I belonged to a 70's model railroad club (that I was a member and lived through a youth but is not what I would model personally). You had the era where every train had a caboose. You have eras where there wasn't DPU's but helper units. You have North American railroads, European Railroads, I'm sure it's different in other parts of the world as well. You have those that like operations like myself. As I said I'm not a steam person but I can relate to the development of a netwrok over virgin land in the 1880's North America. Hell I even ran some of the UK train sims before some of the North America market caught up prior to MSTS.

    My point is a Star Wars or Star Trek franchise wil have WAY more people as part of their community just like say a Flight Simulator does if you want to compare something a bit closer to trains. But despite access to many tools to develop your own games (trust me I had access to it but very little motivation). Building a sim by yourself is a massive task! Especially something that is more than picking up a light saber and fighting. Yes they have their ships as well but that is science fiction. The RO community has many people loving it and just as many wanting more. I love it and can't wait to see what else they come up with, but I'm very happy with how it is right this moment in time. The development from a route and system perspective is in our hands. For me that is much more important than a certain region or era.

    So in closing if you're looking for a certain era or region as a modern sim, and you have LOTS of time start programming or learn to program. Do not expect it to come from the community!!!!! Yes we have numbers but not everyone in the community knows how to develop and as you've seen since the departure of M$ nobody sees money in developing a railroad simulator. People who see railfans thing we are very strange people and don't get the fascination TRUST ME I KNOW! That's OK because I don't care what they think. Right now I eat, sleep, work, watch a bit of wrestling, and run trains! That is my life and it sounds very limited and boring but I love my life. I'm aware of the world we live in and the challenges we face. This is my focus and passion, and I found it again. My passion is not programming I'm sorry

    Thanks

    Sean

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurvivorSean View Post
    ....... My passion is not programming I'm sorry
    You painted a wall to arrive at that conclusion!
    IBM XT i386; 512Kb RAM; 5.25" FDD; 1.4Mb FDD; 5Mb HDD; VGA 256-colour graphics card; AdLib soundcard; DR DOS 6.0; Windows 3.0

  8. #28

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    ORTS is like an Android phone. It can be really easy to simply use it like an iPhone, e.g. install apps and use it with all the default settings, and never think any further than that.

    Or... you can dive under the hood and start using the developer options and tweak things to make it better.

    Some of us even break out a SDK and make our own apps.

    And then there's DTS, Run8, etc... They're iPhone - they look great, and anyone can figure out how to play, but you take what the app store gives you and not much more. A few people might be able to get their apps published, but there isn't a great way for casual users who aren't blessed by Apple to create or distribute their own apps.

    Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurvivorSean View Post
    Trainz has done a fair job but from what I understand their constant evolution pisses off old timers, and has new guys who come in scratching their head asking what is your problem? Obviously they are both right. That is the kind of innovation that is produced out of lack of backward compatibility.
    Sean
    Therein lies the major problem with Trainz, Sean. Having spent hundreds and hundreds of Dollars acquiring DLC locomotives, rollingstock and several routes, we started to have patches that broke the Payware assets, I had nearly 400 locomotives of various models from North America, and because I generally obtained them from the same Trainz suppliers, if one was broken they all got broken, as they generally utilised the same enginesounds, and textures, etc. I spent hours and hours and hours going through the kuid configurations of every one of the broken ones to make them drivable, and then along comes another patch a few month's later and broke them all again, my God the air was blue in our house, I'm surprised the Management at N3V in Australia didn't hear me cursing all hours, I gave up in the end out of exasperation, frustration and nearly lost the will to live, the hobby became a chore and there was no enjoyment out of it at all, and when you went on the forums you got slated for nitpicking and told we should be grateful that N3V had generated patches and offered them to us consumers free of charge, I just laughed at all the stupidity of it in the end and walked away. Of course, there were other problems as well, their Management made a pigs ear of the Kickstarter project, customers were lied to and led astray, things in the game weren't implemented even though they were promised, there is a whole catalogue of various queries we all had and I'll never forgive them for what they did, and these newbies who come along and wonder why the veterans are all pissed off, they'll never understand.

    Cheerz. Steve.
    Last edited by ex-railwayman; 11-15-2021 at 01:13 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Well thankfully I didnt have that issue and bowed out about as quickly as I came in. Being accused of a nitpicker though is certainly not exclusive to Trainz Hopefully where I am now will provide years of value and entertainment much like my past adventures. Other than some small purchases of all kinds of stuff, it's been about 2 years trying to figure out where I actually felt an investement in train simulators was worth my time and money long term.

    Thanks

    Sean

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