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Thread: Excessive steam cloud

  1. #1

    Default Excessive steam cloud

    Hi All,

    Some years ago I purchased three steam locomotive packs from team-ALCO http://teamalco.com.au/TA04.html comprising 36 class, 38 class & Garratt. I now only run Open Rails and have had an ongoing issue with excessive steam visible for the class 36 and class 38 loco's. It appears to originate in front of the drive wheels. To clarify not all of the units comprising the downloads always had the problem and I accepted as the locomotives were circa 2006 perhaps not compatible with OR. I am not too flash with steam eng. files, more complicated in their construction, however over time tried all sorts of modifications to smoke, cylinders, engine variables etc with no luck. The fact that by chance the problem did not occur on some routes led me to believe maybe some discrepancy in route construct impacted.
    Anyway I now believe I have discovered the cause of the problem, but it makes no sense to me at least. Locomotives with crew experience the excess steam - remove the crew via TSRE Consist Editor and problem solved!
    To better illustrate the issue I have uploaded two short videos to YouTube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hsu9i60k5c - Tehachapi - no crew / no steam
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1XzQw_JnAY - MidEast Coast - crew / steam

    Now, there is one further 'complication', isn't there always, the Beyer Garratts have crew in each video however have never had the issue.

    So after drama for so many years I would appreciate if some of the steam buffs could perhaps shed some light on why the difficulty and how the solution could be as I think I have discovered?

    In any event it now allows me to utilise the locomotives in my next video or thereabouts once a suitable activity is created for the MidEast Coast steam era route.

    Any and all responses would be most welcome.

    Duncan

  2. #2

    Default

    Cylinder cocks open? The 'C' key toggles.
    ............Vince ..............
    ...... Author NECv4 .......
    .... LIRR BUILD PHOTOS ....
    ...... Eschew Obsfucation ......

    On the The Statue of Liberty in New York Harbor there is a Tablet. On it is written:
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York, USA.
    Posts
    2,293

    Default

    Hi Folks,

    I’ve been known to dabble with steam locomotives on rare occasion.

    If the first video is what you deem is a good indication and the second is the bad - I didn’t watch the whole video - the second video looks like the stack effect is way off of from where it should be. It looks like the stack effect is buried between the trucks when it should be on top of the smoke stack.

    If you open the ENG file in ShapeViewer - the ENG text file NOT the shape that we normally do - you probably need to do the Windows “Open With” by right clicking on the ENG. Once open - one of the views let’s your view effects (I’m away from my PC for a few days) - and it will show little colored cones on the respective shape to show you the positions of all the effects. Check that.

    You probably just need to raise it on the Y axis.

    Also ORTS has many new effects you can add - such as injectors and compressors - it might be nice to add some to the older locomotives. It’s easy and anyone can do it.

    I’d suggest stopping by the 3DTrains site and see if you can find Marc’s much better smoke effect - I think it vastly improves the smoke - as in my video below.



    Regards,
    Scott


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by scottb613; 12-24-2021 at 12:47 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York, USA.
    Posts
    2,293

    Default Excessive steam cloud

    Hi Folks,

    Watched more of the bad - can’t be the cylinder cocks as that effect is always white - the only effect that can turn black is the stack - looks like you might have two stacks defined in the ENG as one is clearly in the correct location - the other appears buried.

    Regards,
    Scott


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  5. #5

    Default

    G'day Guys,

    Thanks for the responses.

    Vince - You are right and I was unaware, the 'C' key does toggle the cylinder cocks open & shut and can be clearly seen working with white steam visible and not however it makes no difference to the larger steam cloud.

    Scott - I have a version of shape viewer installed however have never used it. My version only has a shape button and when pressed displays 'S' files for which I get a black picture of boiler or running gear and cab. The only ENG is as contained in the locomotive file in Trainset and right click 'open with' provides only the options of Notepad / WordPad, not Shape viewer. Probably a bit above my pay grade having not created rolling stock previously. The only reference I can see for 'stack' in the eng file contains "StackFX 0 4.6 3.95 0 1 0 0.15 on the following 3 lines. Not to worry the removal of crew continues to sort the problem and I am about to do this for all consists. When removed the gap between engine and tender shows a small closing up but I can see no relationship between the static crew in the cab and the excessive steam, quite the mystery. Just pleased I can put the locomotives to work
    Will follow up the 3DTrains recommendation and must say the sound in your video very impressive.

    Thanks Guys, appreciate the input.
    Duncan

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York, USA.
    Posts
    2,293

    Default

    Hi Duncan,

    Yeah - as mentioned - not in front of a PC for a few days so I can’t walk you through it step by step. When I get back - I’ll send some pix (unless someone beats me to it) - to help you load the ENG file into Shape Viewer so you can see the “effects” screen I mentioned.

    Can you post the entire effects section from your ENG file - since you have it in notepad?

    Better yet - you are also missing crew figures? Perhaps it would be bette to post the full ENG file?

    Yeah - I’m pretty happy with the sound environment I have setup. Currently I’m using Derek’s locomotive sounds from his Mallet (w/permission) - my freight cars are using Erick Cantù’s freight car sounds he released as public domain - I’m using the jointed rail track sounds from Maple Leaf Tracks D&H Route - and finally Carlo’s frog and curve squeal from a demo he graciously shared. It takes a little effort to setup but pays big dividends.

    Regards,
    Scott


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New York, USA.
    Posts
    2,293

    Default

    Hi Duncan,

    Here’s the replacement smoke - I also use his diesel replacement as well.

    http://www.3dtrains.com/downloads/misc.shtml

    Regards,
    Scott


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  8. #8

    Default

    Hi Scott,

    It is becoming a bit complex however I will try to keep it simple. The 36 class locomotive in the payware set comprises two 'models' - Roundtop & Belpair. I provide the eng file for 3611 Roundtop & in which I don't see any reference to 'crew'. However using TSRE it identifies crew as a stand alone eng file so 3611 'light running' comprises three parts - engine / crew / tender. This is how I am able to delete the crew. In the Roundtop trainset file their is no eng file for crew BUT in the Belpair trainset file is a bona fide eng file. The naming 'c36ft.eng' gave no indication, only realising via TSRE and its excellent reference system. What, if any, bearing this might have on matters I really don't know. I also provide the crew eng file which contains reference to 'StackFX' and on the face of it appears quite complex just to see two crew members available - I don't run with crew.
    Anyway Scott any assessment on your part to enable me to "scratch this itch" will be much appreciated.
    Oops! 30k characters so will try to utilise additional replies to upload.

  9. #9

    Default

    3611 Eng file (part 1)

    [email protected]@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

    Wagon ( TA_36classR_black
    Type ( Engine )
    WagonShape ( TA_36classR_black.s )
    Size ( 3.251801m 4.638997m 11.5m )

    CentreOfGravity ( 0m 2.319498m 0m )
    Centre ( 0m 0m 0m )
    Mass ( 72t )
    InertiaTensor ( Box (3.251801m 4.638997m 11.5m) )
    FreightAnim ( TA_36boilerR_black.s 0.01 0.01 )
    Coupling (
    Type ( Automatic )
    Spring (
    Stiffness ( 9e6N/m 5e6N/m )
    Damping ( 1.77e6N/m/s 1.77e6N/m/s )
    Break ( 2.1e7N 2.1e7N )
    r0 ( 20cm 30cm )
    )
    CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 )
    Velocity ( 0.1m/s )
    )
    Coupling (
    Type ( Automatic )
    Spring (
    Stiffness ( 9e6N/m 5e6N/m )
    Damping ( 1.77e6N/m/s 1.77e6N/m/s )
    Break ( 2.1e7N 2.1e7N )
    r0 ( 20cm 30cm )

    )
    CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 )
    Velocity ( -0.1m/s )
    )
    Buffers (
    Spring (
    Stiffness ( 9e6N/m 5e6N/m )
    Damping ( 1e6N/m/s 1e6N/m/s )
    r0 ( 0m 10cm )
    )
    Centre ( 0.5 )
    Radius ( 1 )
    Angle ( 0.5deg )
    )

    Adheasion ( 0.1900 3.0600 0.7869 0 )
    comment ( Adhesion computed with NW(4) by TS-FastFix)
    DerailRailHeight ( 13cm )
    DerailRailForce ( 300kN )
    DerailBufferForce ( 1000kN )
    WheelRadius ( 0.495m )

    NumWheels( 4 )
    Friction (9860.5N/m/s -0.25 5.3mph 10.112N/m/s 1.943
    5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1 )

    comment( Friction modified with TS-FastFix 0.9
    All equations from FCalc 2.0 by Joseph T. Realmuto.

    Rail Unit Type : Steam Locomotive
    Speed Range : 75 mph / 121 kph
    Number of Axles: 4
    Weight : 72.0 t / 54.0 t on driven axles.
    Frontal Area : 13.58 m²
    Cd : 1)

    BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir" )
    BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
    MaxBrakeForce ( 80kN )

    TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 )
    MaxReleaseRate ( 20 )
    MaxApplicationRate ( 2.5 )
    MaxAuxilaryChargingRate ( 1 )

    BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 50 )

    Lights ( 5
    Light (
    comment( Flickering firebox )
    Type ( 0 )
    Conditions (
    Service ( 2 )
    Control ( 0 )
    Unit ( 0 )
    )
    FadeIn ( 0.5 )
    FadeOut ( 0.5 )
    Cycle ( 0 )
    States ( 2
    State (
    Duration ( 0.05 )
    LightColour ( 80ff7200 )
    Position ( 0 2.5 -4.6 )
    Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 1.4 )
    )
    State (
    Duration ( 0.05 )
    LightColour ( 80ffe610 )
    Position ( 0 2.5 -4.6 )
    Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 1.4 )
    )
    )
    )
    Light (
    Type ( 1 #Sphere of light )
    Conditions (
    Headlight ( 3 )
    Unit ( 2 )
    )
    Cycle ( 0 )
    FadeIn ( 0.50 )
    FadeOut ( 0.75 )
    States ( 1
    State (
    Duration ( 0.0 )
    LightColour ( 33808080 )
    Position ( 0 1.5 12 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 200.0 )
    Angle ( 15.0 )
    )
    )
    )
    Light (
    comment( headlight )
    Type ( 0 )
    Conditions (
    Headlight ( 3 )
    Unit ( 2 )
    )
    FadeIn ( 0.5 )
    FadeOut ( 0.5 )
    Cycle ( 0 )
    States ( 1
    State (
    Duration ( 0.0 )
    LightColour ( c0E9CF97 )
    Position ( 0 3.45 5.39 )
    Azimuth ( 0 0 0 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 0.70 )
    Elevation ( 0 0 0 )
    )
    )
    )
    Light (
    comment( marker light right )
    Type ( 0 )
    Conditions (
    Control ( 0 )
    Service ( 2 )
    Unit ( 2 )
    )
    FadeIn ( 0.5 )
    FadeOut ( 0.5 )
    Cycle ( 0 )
    States ( 1
    State (
    Duration ( 0.0 )
    LightColour ( C0D9B04F )
    Position ( 1.12 2.83 4.92 )
    Azimuth ( 0 0 0 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 0.15 )
    Elevation ( 0 0 0 )
    )
    )
    )
    Light (
    comment( marker light left )
    Type ( 0 )
    Conditions (
    Service ( 2 )
    Control ( 0 )
    Unit ( 2 )
    )
    FadeIn ( 0.5 )
    FadeOut ( 0.5 )
    Cycle ( 0 )
    States ( 1
    State (
    Duration ( 0.0 )
    LightColour ( C0D9B04F )
    Position ( -1.11 2.83 4.92 )
    Azimuth ( 0 0 0 )
    Transition ( 0 )
    Radius ( 0.15 )
    Elevation ( 0 0 0 )
    )
    )
    )
    )




    Sound ( "C36Eng01.sms" )

    )

    Engine ( TA_36classR_black
    Effects
    (
    SteamSpecialEffects
    (
    SafetyValvesFX
    (
    0 4.3 -2.972425
    0 1 0
    0.16
    )
    WhistleFX
    (
    0 4.25 -1
    0 1 0
    0.15
    )
    StackFX
    (
    0 4.6 3.95
    0 1 0
    0.15
    )
    CylindersFX
    (
    -1.1 0.7016964 3.650875
    0 0 1
    0.2
    )
    CylindersFX
    (
    1.1 0.7016964 3.650875
    0 0 1
    0.2
    )
    )
    )

    Comment ( General )
    Wagon ( TA_36classR_black )
    IsTenderRequired( -1 )
    Type ( Steam )
    MaxPower ( 1099kW )
    MaxForce ( 132kn )
    MaxVelocity ( 70mph )
    WheelRadius ( 0.874m )
    Sanding ( 1e9mph )
    NumWheels( 4 )

    Comment ( boiler )
    BoilerLength ( 4.4m )
    BoilerVolume ( "244*(ft^3)" )
    BoilerEffectivity ( 1.2 )
    DraftingEffect ( 0.95 )
    BoilerResponsiveness ( 1.25 )
    CoalBurnage ( 6lb/hp/h )
    MaxBoilerOutput ( 32000lb/h )
    SafetyValvesSteamUsage ( 900lb/h )
    SuperHeater ( 1.21 )


    Comment ( Cylinders )
    NumCylinders ( 2 )
    CylinderStroke ( 26in )
    CylinderDiameter ( 22.5in )
    CylinderVolume ( "10.4*(ft^3)" )

    CylinderEffectivity ( 5.3 )
    ExhaustLimit ( 32000lb/h )
    PrimingFactor ( 0.95 )
    MaxBoilerPressure ( 180psi )
    MaxFireMass ( 1950lb )
    IdealFireMass ( 1700lb )
    MaxWaterMass ( 4000lb )
    ShovelCoalMass ( 14lb )
    SmokeCombustion ( 1 )
    MaxTenderCoalMass ( 20900lb )
    MaxTenderWaterMass ( 40000lb )
    comment(0 for live steam, 1 for exhaust steam)

    Comment ( Injectors )
    InjectorSizes ( 11mm 12mm )
    InjectorTypes( 0 1 )
    InjectorLimits1 ( 50psi 0.6 1 )
    InjectorLimits2 ( 60psi 0 1 )
    Injector1FeedrateMultiplierExhaust ( 1.15 )
    Injector1FeedrateMultiplierLive ( 0.6 )
    Injector2FeedrateMultiplierExhaust ( 1.15 )
    Injector2FeedrateMultiplierLive ( 0.6 )
    Injector1WaterValveVarience ( 0.25 )
    Injector2WaterValveVarience ( 0.25 )

    Comment ( smoke and steam )
    SteamSmokeUnitsPerPoundOfFuel( 1 )
    SteamMaxSmokeUnitsReleaseRate( 12 )
    MaxSteamHeatingPressure( 20 )
    SafetyValvePressureDifference( 7 )

    BasicSteamUsage ( 100lb/h )
    BasicCoalUsage ( 200lb/h )
    comment( min steam pressure, min water proportion, max water proportion )
    CylinderCocksPowerEfficiency ( 0.9 )
    SteamCylinderCocksOperation( Manual )
    SteamFiremanMaxPossibleFiringRate( 38000 )

  10. #10

    Default

    3611 Eng file (Part 2)

    Comment ( Draft and blast )
    SteamBlowerEffectExponent( 0.9 )
    SteamBlowerEfficiencyExponent( 1.1 )
    SteamBlowerMaxSteamUsageRate( 500 ) comment( lbs/h )
    SteamBlowerMaxProportionOfBlastEffect( 0.15 )
    BlastExponent ( 0.6 )


    Comment ( Throttle and reverser )

    RegulatorValveType ( single_port )
    RegulatorSecondValveStartPosition( 0.5 )
    RegulatorPilotValveExponent( 1.5 )

    RegulatorPilotValveFullOpenning( 0.95 )
    RegulatorMainValveInitialOpenning( 0.49 )
    SteamSmallestCutoff( 1.4 )


    Comment ( Braking systems )
    AirBrakesAirCompressorPowerRating( 5 )
    AirBrakesMainMinResAirPressure( 70 )
    AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 110 )
    AirBrakesMainResVolume( 4 )
    AirBrakesAirCompressorWattage( 10000 )
    AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 105 )
    AirBrakesAirUsedPerPoundsOfBrakePipePressure( 2 )
    AirBrakesHasLowPressureTest( 0 )
    AirBrakesIsCompressorElectricOrMechanical( 1 )

    EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
    TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
    EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
    EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )
    EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 1.5 )
    TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 1.5 )
    EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 10 )
    TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 20 )
    EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 5.7 )
    TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 5.7 )
    EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
    TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
    EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 50 )
    TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 70 )
    EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
    TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
    EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 20 )
    TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 20 )

    BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
    BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
    BrakesEngineControllers( "Train, Independent" )

    Comment ( miscellaneous )
    SteamGaugeGlassHeight( 13.2 )
    NumberOfDamperSteps( 4 )


    CabView ( "..\\..\\Common.cab\\AU_nsw36\\36classR.cvf" )
    HeadOut ( -1.64 3.4 -4.9 )

    EngineControllers (
    comment( Engine controls )

    Regulator ( 0 1 0.025 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    Cutoff ( -0.75 0.75 0.025 .50
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )

    Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.05 0
    NumNotches ( 1
    Notch( 0 1 Dummy )
    )
    )

    Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.01 0.5
    NumNotches ( 5
    Notch( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullQuickReleaseStart )
    Notch( 0.25 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
    Notch( 0.50 0 TrainBrakesControllerHoldStart )
    Notch( 0.75 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart )
    Notch( 1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
    )
    )


    Brake_Hand ( 0 1 0.0125 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    FireDoor ( 0 1 0.1 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    Sanding( 0 1 0 )
    Blower ( 0 1 0.025 0.2
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    HeatingTap ( 0 1 0.025 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    Shovel ( 0 1 0.1 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    DampersFront ( 0 1 0.1 1
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    DampersBack ( 0 1 0.1 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    Injector1Steam ( 0 1 0 )
    Injector2Steam ( 0 1 0 )
    Injector1Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    Injector2Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
    NumNotches( 0 )
    )
    CylinderCocks ( 0 1 1 )
    Whistle ( 0 1 0 )
    SmallEjectorOrCompressor( 0 1 1 )
    Headlights( 0 1 0 )
    )

    comment(fire temp, fire mass, water mass, boiler pressure,
    water level, tender_water_mass, tender_coal_mass,
    smoke_quantity, fire_condition, coal quality )

    EngineVariables( 860 1494 1743 182 1.0 40000 1 1 1 0.85 )

    Sound ( "C36Cab01.sms" )

    Name ( " TA 3611 NSWGR Black RT" )

    Description (

    "NSWGR 36 Class Roundtop Boiler\n"+
    "____________________________\n\n"+
    "3d Model:\n"+
    " Joseph Spinella\n"+
    "____________________________\n\n"+
    "Textures:\n"+
    " Joseph Spinella\n"+
    "____________________________\n\n"+
    "Physics: Ian Bowles\n"+
    "____________________________\n\n"+
    "Copyright © 2006 Team-ALCO\n"+
    "All Rights Reserved.\n"+
    "____________________________\n\n"+

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